Voxels?

[BladeJunker]

The Genesis is okay at rendering columns IF they're a byte or word wide. Trying to render a single column means inserting nibbles in a byte, which will take a lot of time. Look at the MD version of Wolf3D gasega68k has been working on as an example - he draws the columns as bytes, partly for speed, and partly as a pair of pixels that simulates more colors. This could be done for voxels as well. The ASIC in the SCD could be used for drawing columns of various widths. That would probably speed things up quite a bit.

So I'm right to assume we should have seen more Wolf3D type games on Sega CD? Think that would have given it a better market niche than FMV.

Not sure what you mean here - what textures? What platform? Be more specific.

The Genesis, Sega CD, and 32X. What type of surface rendering would serve each best, what are rendering in your Sega CD demo voxel landscape, polygons or 2D approximates? How would something like grass be created based on the standards, or are we talking about just solid colors with lighting values?

I think you'd probably be better to have special codes in the height map that signaled an object rather than the height. You'd look that object up in a table/list, and it would reference sprites or poly models (sprites for speed on lower systems). Maybe a separate map from the height map to avoid needing special codes. You look at the height map for the ground, and the other map for any objects.

Oh okay, so whole different method all together for rendering objects, no height map just regular model creation? When using sprites are we talking multiple sprites or more like standard 2.5D sprites? An object layer sounds logical for an open world game(faster editing), I'm guessing it would use the height map to place object elevation?

[Chilly Willy]

So I'm right to assume we should have seen more Wolf3D type games on Sega CD? Think that would have given it a better market niche than FMV.

Almost certainly. Given how good gasega68k has done with Wolf3D on the Genesis, think about how good he could do with the CD... faster 68000, hardware support for drawing columns of data, proper PCM audio support...

The Genesis, Sega CD, and 32X. What type of surface rendering would serve each best, what are rendering in your Sega CD demo voxel landscape, polygons or 2D approximates? How would something like grass be created based on the standards, or are we talking about just solid colors with lighting values?

The Genesis and Sega CD lend themselves to a more fixed kind of texture like Wolf3D. The 32X can handle Doom/Quake type textures. Wolf3D on the 32X is really simple. A mix of flat, shaded, and textured polys like Mario 64 is probably best for the 32X as it is. The 32X can probably also handle a slightly more modern version of voxel rendering - raycast into a quad tree to find polys, then do a standard poly renderer. Don't get carried away with the detail and the 32X could handle it fine. Think of something VRD where the track is done via voxels with polygons instead of columns/boxes. That's essentially what Yeti3D is - it raycasts into a fixed map (instead of a tree) to find boxes, whose sides are then added to a list of polygons to render. It's basically a 64x64 height map with more info than just the height for each entry.

Oh okay, so whole different method all together for rendering objects, no height map just regular model creation? When using sprites are we talking multiple sprites or more like standard 2.5D sprites? An object layer sounds logical for an open world game(faster editing), I'm guessing it would use the height map to place object elevation?

You can use the height map to make some things... big buildings, for example. But more complicated things are better handled not as the background, but as separate foreground objects. Especially if they can move or change in any fashion. Making a moving/changing object part of the height map would be fiendishly tricky. You could use the height map to set the base height for the object, but it's not necessary (for example, an object floating over the ground a certain height would need more than just the height map).

When I say sprites as regards a voxel game, I mean like Doom sprites.

[A31Chris]

So when we say "voxel" rendering here as concerns a SegaCD or 32X (any similar old console), we are STRICTLY referring to raycasting into a height map to generate a column or box of pixels. Period.

ok ok

[Chilly Willy]

A good example on the Jaguar showing how good the Jag is at voxels (and it's GOOD) is Fallen Angels (I think I mentioned that earlier). It's an awesome voxel game that shows off how good voxels are at certain kinds of games. It's also homebrew!

[A31Chris]

I know! I was the beta tester on it. Dr Typo had other plans for that engine but he's dropped off the map since then.

[Chilly Willy]

I know! I was the beta tester on it. Dr Typo had other plans for that engine but he's dropped off the map since then.

I'm hoping he eventually posts the source for it. I'm currently porting Tube SE to the CD32X. The CD32X combination is a decent match to the Jaguar, only missing the large block of ram and the blitter. It won't be quite as fast, but it should still make a nice homebrew game for CD32X owners. I'd love to make a CD32X version of Fallen Angels after I finish Tube SE.

[A31Chris]

I'm hoping he eventually posts the source for it. I'm currently porting Tube SE to the CD32X. The CD32X combination is a decent match to the Jaguar, only missing the large block of ram and the blitter. It won't be quite as fast, but it should still make a nice homebrew game for CD32X owners. I'd love to make a CD32X version of Fallen Angels after I finish Tube SE.

That's awesome! I love seeing ports to different systems like that. Don't quote me but I don't think Typo has plans to release the source to his voxel engine. Not on anything he has said but based on his actions. He was always Johnny on the spot to post these things in the past. But this time...

Here is his Tube SE interview for those interested.
http://atariage.com/forums/topic/193...-with-dr-typo/

I hope he's doing ok.

Which reminds me I gotta get to work helping Frank Wille with something. I

[BladeJunker]

Noticed a lot of early 3D (and 2D lol) clipped the screen a fair amount which is fine to a reasonable percentage but I think it can get out of hand and the border space created by this needs to be utilized better than it was often. Seemed worth talking about with limited 3D setups.

Battle Frenzy/Bloodshot: I think the percentage of clipping isn't too bad but the asymmetrical window offset looks poor, more than a few games tried this but you always want the center of the screen to be the player. What is strange about this HUD is how little the status bar portion is used for update prompts as those are overlayed onto the 3D window, even the mini-map is overlayed. They could have put the weapon and battery? icons down the left and right of the screen, the map off the 3D window, one large decent icon of the selected weapon, and what is that giant thing in the top right display.
152318-battle-frenzy-sega-cd-screenshot-facing-the-first-enemys_zpsd51bf094.png

Metal Head: I think if it were any bigger it would hurt the 3D window resolution. Pretty basic looks like the cropping is built for overscan the way its all up and centered.


Doom: Reasonable clipping loss and fairly transparent since ID planned for it in the original PC version. Not a bad redesign but I would have gone further and made each gauge larger, probably put the Key and Weapon tabs vertically oriented.

Actually on the subject of Doom32X I'd like to mention the double wide pixel resolution of the 3D window and how it pertains to sprites and textures. I noticed that it is actually a very low percentage of distance where you can actually see anything close enough for visibly square pixels IE. right next to things, that you might as well drop the assets down to 50% less wide and save the memory for other concerns.
doom_zpsf265be89.gif

Zero Tolerance: I like this game but wow is that a tiny wide viewport, like super peripheral vision lol. Mini-map is nice and readable but being equal in height to the actual screen means its not that mini. Text prompt is too small as it hyphens full words constantly which is less to do with the small ornate details and more to do with that laughably huge I.D. card. Wow is that big, like Doom guy's drivers license taped to the screen.
1335680660_zero-tolerance-8_zps2777c418.png

Cyber-Cop: Pretty convoluted but better than the earlier computer versions if you can believe. Most of the HUD is justified as it has a sim like avatar but I'm pretty sure the Virgin Games logo isn't doing anything. Looks nice but the 3D window is a little small and a lot of these menu types would be better served individually per screen rather than all at once as a border, too complicated and still in need of more streamlining.
Cyber-Cop-9_zpsb880629d.gif

Duke Nukem: Not a good choice to stick close to the original PC design as 3X5 pixel characters don't show up so good on a CRT. Really needed a console style HUD.
DukeNukem3DB_zpseebeb11c.png

Tech Question:
Was thinking about status bars in 3D games like Doom and wondering how expensive is it to switch palettes entirely for one vertical portion of the screen and back again in real time as in exceeding 64 colors through the scan line rendering? How fast is the palette loading/switching on Genesis, Sega CD, and 32X?

[BladeJunker]

Ran out of attachments to post this, guess 5 is a good limit, heh.
FPPHUD01_zpsb81531cf.png

Tried a HUD layout not for anything particular as it is mostly just generic and a use of clipped space. Has a reticule based info bar, liked it System Shock and don't know why more games don't have them. Vertical icon rack fits snugly in the afforded space, got it up to 10 with decent res. A couple basic gauges for Health and Mana I guess. I like to always have room for a dialog prompt of good size even if its only a temporary display shared by other prompts of equal size, lost art somewhat as voice tracks tend to make developers forget all about deaf gamers. Got to have a Mini-map especially in corridor games where every place looks like every other place, kind of wish Doom and Duke3D had them so it would have been thought of as standard practice for FPS games.

Like I mentioned these kind of HUDs are specific to limited 3D as full screen overlays became the norm. Mostly just trying to take a weakness and turn it into a strength as a lot 3D games of the era didn't hide there clipping losses very well.

[BladeJunker]

Promise, my last post about HUDs.

Took a stab at clipping the 3D window off center.

SquareScreen_01_zps0e0c22d6.png

Grossly I used the 'square screen' approach used in shmups often and RTS games albeit closer to 4:3, vertical gauge but a decent amount of resolution when cramming everything together on one side.

The other major aspect is telescoping screen space inwards and adding a border tile graphic which is something I cribbed from Sega CD FMV and Japanese MegaCD games, as long as it isn't too thick it can look intentional, elegant, and keep important screen information away from the overscan region.


Last thing is don't fill screen space with nonsense, if you don't have many meters or gauges simply make them bigger and easier to read rather than adding BS graphics.

527329-ultima-underworld-the-stygian-abyss-dos-screenshot-warren_zps4a6a560e.png

Using Ultima Underworld: Stygian Abyss as an example, starting from the left bottom a jewel on a table, a dragon bookend, a giant compass menu, a ruin gauge, another dragon, and a couple potion bottles. Alright now look at the font, look how small and crappy it is, the lower case E can't even separate in the middle properly.
Yeesh, shove all the important parts into the corner, add some square life bars gauges, ditch the statues, and pull the text window up. Damn Ultima games, you're good but a low res screen is nothing like a parchment with calligraphy on it.

It is ironic how hard it is to read in games that demand you do a lot of reading, too many wordy games commit this sin, Adventure games are the worst. Reading text needs to be Wii style big if want people to do more than jam on the skip page button.

[Chilly Willy]

Wow, that second one looks great!

[BladeJunker]

Wow, that second one looks great!

You're a funny guy, yes Ultima pixel art is very pretty. I'm kind of a lazy absent minded artist but I have drawn more than HUDs.

[Chilly Willy]

You're a funny guy, yes Ultima pixel art is very pretty. I'm kind of a lazy absent minded artist but I have drawn more than HUDs.

The other stuff is good too. Just not as complete... which makes sense since they're not exactly targeting a specific game. Any who, most race games want a HUD that's mostly just a few indicators floating over the main display - no panels at all. You might try your hand at that as well.

[BladeJunker]

The other stuff is good too. Just not as complete... which makes sense since they're not exactly targeting a specific game. Any who, most race games want a HUD that's mostly just a few indicators floating over the main display - no panels at all. You might try your hand at that as well.

Well thank you for that.
Actually 'clipping HUDs' is a new thing for me since I usually just overlay things on a full screen. I mean nobody wanted to make the screen small in old 3D games but they had to in order to get the performance decent. Like gasega68k's Wolf3D port, what was it 256X128, that was the limit of 3D window size for the engine.

I don't want to shrink the screen either as it makes it harder to see things and draw sprites but if it has to it should look as transparent as possible, I'm just preparing for the inevitable costs of pushing fixed hardware further but have some way to add slack if needed.

It doesn't always work in projects but I like to try cover as many platforms as possible especially with the Genesis/Megadrive platform since the most fans have the base unit, less people have a Sega CD, and even less have a 32X. It's an exhausting standard to live up to designing games that run on maximum platforms, I have better focus now but I love all the platforms so I jump around too much. I actually planned to build an alternate controller for the Colecovision but got caught up in Sega again.

Quick question, you know of anyone doing color raster effects for increased color count on the Genesis like flickering 2 layers as C64 demos do? Something along the lines of a photo viewer streaming from the Sega CD. See multimedia, another project in itself.

[Chilly Willy]

Quick question, you know of anyone doing color raster effects for increased color count on the Genesis like flickering 2 layers as C64 demos do? Something along the lines of a photo viewer streaming from the Sega CD. See multimedia, another project in itself.

Hmm - the only thing like that I'm aware of recently is the Direct Color DMA. That gives a 160x224 or 128x224 display using 9 bit BGR pixels. That allows all 512 possible colors directly. I did a Wolf3D sorta demo for the CD using the mode along with my SCD MOD player. If you don't remember how that looks, someone made a video:



That's all C other than the fixed point multiply. I can't imagine how fast it would run and how good it would look using gasega68k's Wolf3D base.