Some things I noticed about Sonic 3 and Knuckles...

[Jeckidy]

If there's anything I've noticed when playing S3 or S&SK (either alone or together) is that, despite how nice these games may seem, the levels are not only too big for their own good, but too samey. I can't for the life of me tell them apart very clearly neither by the acts or even the way they progress. I always sense a lot of deva-ju, like the segments of the stages are recycled and looped. I was playing S&K earlier today until I realized this, then, when I had gotten up to Lava Reef Zone, promptly turned it off to play some Paper Mario (I was playing it, of course, on the Gamecube compilation). This is actually present in virtually every one of the main Sonic games, but some tend to be worse about it than others, which may explain why Sonic 1 and 2 are more widely loved. However, I tend to feel the same way about the early Mario games, at least in respect to repetitive levels. Does anyone else feel this way?

[EPSYLON EAGLE]

No, its your imagination...

[Thief]

Well, you see, back then these games were on limited cart space. And doing very detailed graphics in tiles greatly saved up on space in order to make up for such large games with so little space that you can't fit an mp3 song on these days.

I read in an interview that Naka for Sonic 3 came up with a way to be able to make bigger levels. Why some sections seem to repeat is probably part of the process (and why things don't make sense in debug mode sometimes, lol. ie. 3rd Sonic 3 stage). Otherwise, yes, it is normal to see more then one loop de loop things in all the Genesis Sonic games.



PS - out of all the Sonic games, I enjoyed part 3 more then Sonic 2 (which for some reason never held my interest all the time and as long as I wanted?). During Sonic 2 days I noticed that I enjoyed the art style of Green Hill, + how Sonic looks, in Sonic 1 better (later I find out why, some western artists were involved for part 2, lol). When Sonic 3 came out I was so very super happy with it for quite some time. When S&K came out, I wasn't so sure that is was the better half of the two? (No snow stage!) But S&K+3 I played the heck out of back in them days when it just came out. Filled up the save RAM fie for each game, lol. Then when I bought it via Sonic Jam, I filled them up all over again.

These days I think S&K is indeed the better half.

But man, the way the series ended on Genesis was perfect to me. Lots of massive levels, massive replay value, some of my fave Sonic tunes, my fave graphics, a beatable bonus stage (looking at you Sonic 2 >_<), Snow stage (lol), Secrets that encouraged exploring (big rings. My mind was blown when I found a 3rd Ring in the Desert Act 1 ... then up to 6 or 7 total in one act?!?! x_x S&K really broke the rules, lol) and finally a Death Egg stage that also just blew me away back in the day at how well it was done. Wow. Such creativity in the final Sonic games everywhere I looked & ones that made me a very happy Genesis owner. ... m e m o r i e s...

Thanks for the nostalgic trip, 5233. And if you ain't feeling the Sonic games, it's ok to just play Mario anyways. (Not me, however. I'm the exact opposite of you).

[Jeckidy]

Thief, I meant that I had the same critique about the old Mario games as I did about the early Sonic games. Not that I thought they were better overall. I understand what you're saying about the technical implications behind S3/S&K's design. That's certainly something I knew of, but even if you have the ability to pad the levels out longer, it doesn't always mean that's what you should do. Don't bite off more than you can chew, to put it simply. Honestly, Sonic 1 has become my favorite in recent years and I must have played it over a dozen times in the last few years with all emeralds. Sonic 2 was good but overrated, and Sonic 3 and S&K are a mixed bag. I love the multiple character options, but they're not without flaws IMHO.

[Bottino]

Well, about Sonic 3...

Sonic 2 was good but overrated

[Guntz]

Sonic 2 is good but the special stage is the worst in the entire series.

[Jeckidy]

Sonic 2 is good but the special stage is the worst in the entire series.

It's funny you say that, as I have yet to get all emeralds in either S3 or S&K. I'm still trying to get the gist of completing the special stages correctly.

[Qjimbo]

I agree that the Sonic 3&K levels have fewer "landmarks" than in Sonic 1 and 2 - there are less recognizable areas. It's harder to become as familiar with the levels - the upside is it has more replay value, but the downside is it's harder to track your progress.

[Bottino]

It's very simple really. One of the main reasons that Sonic 3 'Complete' has larger levels is because you have to hunt down the secret areas where you can find those big rings in order to access the special stages, unlike the previous games.
It makes perfect sense from a design stand point.
And of course, when you have so many big stages it's very natural for some repetition to occur; the same thing can be said about Mario games.
If we go down by that road, then pretty much every from that era was repetitive.

Games were also getting "bigger" by that point in time, so it was natural for Sonic to go down in that path.

Comparing games like Sonic to Sonic 3, is like comparing Revenge of Shinobi to Shinobi 3 or Phantasy Star II to Phantasy Star IV. They're a product of the time in which they were made. There's no need to say that one is objectively better than the other and I think it's a privilege when a console with a big life-span as the MD/Genesis can contemplate games from different "eras" and have series that provide somewhat different experiences within it's games.

They're all quality games, but it's our personal tastes that defines how 'great' they are.
That's why a lot of people confuses opinions with facts ( "I think that Zelda 64 is the best game ever" / "Zelda 64 IS the best game ever" ).

[synapse]

I agree that the Sonic 3&K levels have fewer "landmarks" than in Sonic 1 and 2 - there are less recognizable areas. It's harder to become as familiar with the levels - the upside is it has more replay value, but the downside is it's harder to track your progress.

I could not possibly disagree more.

[Hans-CD]

I agree that the Sonic 3&K levels have fewer "landmarks" than in Sonic 1 and 2 - there are less recognizable areas. It's harder to become as familiar with the levels - the upside is it has more replay value, but the downside is it's harder to track your progress.

I always felt it was the complete opposite. Opinions

[xelement5x]

It's funny you say that, as I have yet to get all emeralds in either S3 or S&K. I'm still trying to get the gist of completing the special stages correctly.

The key with the Sonic 3 special stages is that if you encircle blue orbs with red orbs (by walking over them like always) the whole patch turns into rings. Once I discovered that as a kid most special stages became much easier. Also, you can still jump in special stages.

[Thief]

Sonic 2 is good but the special stage is the worst in the entire series.

Yeah, I know. I could never beat 'em. I mean, how rude. Was barely even able to bet them with GameGenie, is how hard they were.

And yes, me complaining about difficulty does seem at odd with what I say these days. But back in them days I thought they were way much harder then the main game. Sure, with enough tries at it maybe I would of come much closer or maybe even got them all? But no way was that game holding my interest long enough for that to happen. Recall giving a really good try a few times, but the only way I would see Super Sonic was later when I found out about the debug code. Otherwise I only seen the true ending once via Game Genie. So yeah, them bonus levels being so much harder was one thing that always left a bad taste in my mouth. As I would never get the good ending. What BS. ... So give it another try these days and see what happens? Maybe Sonic 2 will end up my fave?

But I want to know, and very honestly too. Out of all the folks the prefer Sonic 2, how many of you managed to get the real ending legit?

Thief, I meant that I had the same critique about the old Mario games as I did about the early Sonic games. Not that I thought they were better overall. I understand what you're saying about the technical implications behind S3/S&K's design. That's certainly something I knew of, but even if you have the ability to pad the levels out longer, it doesn't always mean that's what you should do. Don't bite off more than you can chew, to put it simply. Honestly, Sonic 1 has become my favorite in recent years and I must have played it over a dozen times in the last few years with all emeralds. Sonic 2 was good but overrated, and Sonic 3 and S&K are a mixed bag. I love the multiple character options, but they're not without flaws IMHO.

Oh, no. I love that they aimeed for more then they could chew on for S3&K. It's one of my most memorible 16-Bit memories I can think of. Perfect Sonic series ending (to me the Sonic series died here).

But yeah, something makes me want to say I like Sonic 1 better then 2 also. Well, back in the day I thought this from time to time. Need to play them again and see how I feel about it these days? I know my repect for Sonic 2 went up a tad bit more (nostalgia, lol). But either way, great memories of them all & them all greatly contributing to me becoming more of a Genesis fan then SNES. Sonic 2 was my first 1 as it came with my Genesis 2. Not sure if I got Sonic 1 before or after Knuckles, but was able to borrow it before the days i finally bought it with the "Sega Classics logo re-release." Because I just had to have all the Sonic Genesis games


PS - look at VG maps for the Sonic games to see how much they repeat certain things? I only ever checked out the maps for Sonic 1 & 2 and never for S3&K because. As only for Sonic 1 & 2 I have a pretty good idea of the levels since they're so small. For S3&K, piecing it all together in my mind is a much harder job. But not knowing it well enough also adds to the replay value, so I am to keep it that way.

[Thief]

It's funny you say that, as I have yet to get all emeralds in either S3 or S&K. I'm still trying to get the gist of completing the special stages correctly.

Play Sonic 1 & Knuckles Lock On Bonus Stages. Just play that for a little bit. After a few of those, you'll never have a problem with the regular bonus stages in S3&K ever again. Trust me.

Or if you don't feel like it, you can just play the Sonic Jam remixed normal modes which removes the speed increase from those stages. And if you still can't beat them yet, you can call yourself Grampa Simpson.

[Jeckidy]

To be honest, I think I've only ever gotten all the emeralds with Sonic in S2 like once in my entire life, or maybe twice at the very least. But I must've done it like three times with Knuckles and Tails. And is it just me or are their special stages different for each character? Because Knuckles and Tails' stages seem ALOT easier.