Who is better at gameplay these days in regards to EAST VS WEST devs teams?

[Thief]

They are comparable in sales, not quality.

But, but... isn't the quality of gameplay and replay value way more important for this topic o' mine I started? ...

[gamevet]

They are comparable in sales, not quality.

It wasn't comparable at all. The game received a score that averaged 50%.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daytona_USA_(video_game)

Daytona USA is a racing video game developed by Sega AM2 and released by Sega, with a limited release in 1993 followed by a full release in 1994.[3] One of the highest grossing arcade games of all time,[4]

Daytona is considered one of the highest grossing arcade cabinets of all-time. This is taking into consideration that it is competing against the likes of Pac-Man, Asteroids, Donkey Kong, Missile Command, Dig-Dug, Pole Position and Space Invaders during the golden age of arcade games.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruis%27n_USA

Yeah.....


http://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2014/01/28...rs-in-arcades/

[A Black Falcon]

It wasn't comparable at all. The game received a score that averaged 50%.

Yes, that's exactly what I said. Read more carefully. They are comparable in sales, not quality. Daytona USA is a far better game of course, but the Cruis'n series and its successors are right up there with it in success, in the US at least; internationally of course it's different.

Cruis'n series games and successors (all games designed or published by Eugene Jarvis, first at Midway then Raw Thrills)
--
Cruis'n USA - Arcade 1994, N64 1996
Cruis'n World - Arcade 1996, N64 1998
Cruis'n Exotica - Arcade 1999, N64 2000 (GBC Version: 2000)
The Fast & The Furious / Cruis'n - Arcade 2004, Wii 2007
The Fast & The Furious: Super Bikes - Arcade, 2006
The Fast & The Furious: Super Cars / Super Cars - Arcade, 2007
The Fast & The Furious: Drift - Arcade 2007
Super Bikes 2 - Arcade, 2010

Here's a video of Super Bikes 2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8aJyajqbow As you can see, the gameplay is basically Cruis'n USA but with better graphics.

But, but... isn't the quality of gameplay and replay value way more important for this topic o' mine I started? ...

It's a counterpoint against Trekkies' usual "but Daytona is still making money in arcades so that proves how good it is" line, partially. A game doesn't need to be great to make money in arcades, it just needs to be amusing for a few minutes. You see this from Cruis'n-style games. I mean, sure, it is a testament to Daytona USA's enduring popularity that it is still in arcades, but that alone doesn't prove that the game is great. Yes, sales matter; selling well is a good thing. But selling well alone doesn't make a game great, it just makes it popular. If a game both sells well AND has good reviews, then that's clearly a good game. But sales alone only prove popularity. And as unpopular as Cruis'n games have been among console gamers ever since the mediocre reception the first Cruis'n USA got for the N64, in arcades the idea was a big hit, which is why there were 8 games released over 16 years with the same basic concept.

To put it simply, good sales are a thing worth mentioning as a positive for a game but are not in and of themselves proof of quality.

[Loggo]

If it helps his argument it's relevant, but if it doesn't it's not. Simple!

Seriously though, yeah. With the state of arcade gaming where it is, in the rare times people actually play arcade games they'll probably play whatever the place has.

OutRun was released in 1986 and it was still available (and popular) at the arcades for over a decade after its original debut.

That was during the mid-90s, a time where arcades were still alive and kicking with games like Sega Rally, Virtua Fighter, Tekken, House of the Dead, Time Crisis etc.

[Thief]

It's a counterpoint against Trekkies' usual "but Daytona is still making money in arcades so that proves how good it is" line, partially. A game doesn't need to be great to make money in arcades, it just needs to be amusing for a few minutes. You see this from Cruis'n-style games. I mean, sure, it is a testament to Daytona USA's enduring popularity that it is still in arcades, but that alone doesn't prove that the game is great. Yes, sales matter; selling well is a good thing. But selling well alone doesn't make a game great, it just makes it popular. If a game both sells well AND has good reviews, then that's clearly a good game. But sales alone only prove popularity. And as unpopular as Cruis'n games have been among console gamers ever since the mediocre reception the first Cruis'n USA got for the N64, in arcades the idea was a big hit, which is why there were 8 games released over 16 years with the same basic concept.

To put it simply, good sales are a thing worth mentioning as a positive for a game but are not in and of themselves proof of quality.

Daytona only good for a few minutes... no. Just no. Stop right there and don't you dare go any further.

[gamevet]

Yes, that's exactly what I said. Read more carefully. They are comparable in sales, not quality. Daytona USA is a far better game of course, but the Cruis'n series and its successors are right up there with it in success, in the US at least; internationally of course it's different.

Cruis'n series games and successors (all games designed or published by Eugene Jarvis, first at Midway then Raw Thrills)
--
Cruis'n USA - Arcade 1994, N64 1996
Cruis'n World - Arcade 1996, N64 1998
Cruis'n Exotica - Arcade 1999, N64 2000 (GBC Version: 2000)
The Fast & The Furious / Cruis'n - Arcade 2004, Wii 2007
The Fast & The Furious: Super Bikes - Arcade, 2006
The Fast & The Furious: Super Cars / Super Cars - Arcade, 2007
The Fast & The Furious: Drift - Arcade 2007
Super Bikes 2 - Arcade, 2010

Here's a video of Super Bikes 2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8aJyajqbow As you can see, the gameplay is basically Cruis'n USA but with better graphics.


It's a counterpoint against Trekkies' usual "but Daytona is still making money in arcades so that proves how good it is" line, partially. A game doesn't need to be great to make money in arcades, it just needs to be amusing for a few minutes. You see this from Cruis'n-style games. I mean, sure, it is a testament to Daytona USA's enduring popularity that it is still in arcades, but that alone doesn't prove that the game is great. Yes, sales matter; selling well is a good thing. But selling well alone doesn't make a game great, it just makes it popular. If a game both sells well AND has good reviews, then that's clearly a good game. But sales alone only prove popularity. And as unpopular as Cruis'n games have been among console gamers ever since the mediocre reception the first Cruis'n USA got for the N64, in arcades the idea was a big hit, which is why there were 8 games released over 16 years with the same basic concept.

To put it simply, good sales are a thing worth mentioning as a positive for a game but are not in and of themselves proof of quality.

They aren't comparable at all. You're also lumping in bullshit that has nothing to do with the Cruis'n arcade games. The other 2 games could be bought as conversion kits to replace the original POS arcade game, once it stopped earning enough money to keep it on the floor. This whole thing is hilarious, considering that Midway was going down the drain in profits and cutting losses left and right and closed down their arcade division a year after (the highly profitable) Cruis'n Exotica was released.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midway_Games

Meanwhile, Daytona USA was so popular, that even Sega's own Daytona 2 was a hard sell, when the owners of the original Daytona were still seeing profits.

[BonusKun]

Oh jesus is this the ABF thinks Crusin USA was just as popular as Daytona in the arcades again? *facepalm

[gamevet]

Yeah. He's quite the idiot!

[A Black Falcon]

Daytona only good for a few minutes... no. Just no. Stop right there and don't you dare go any further.

I most certainly didn't say that. Read things before you respond to them.

They aren't comparable at all.

If you think they aren't comparable, why not? You haven't really said a reason.

You're also lumping in bullshit that has nothing to do with the Cruis'n arcade games.

The 8 arcade games are the important ones; I only also listed the console games for completion. I should note, I left out Cruis'n Velocity for the GBA because it doesn't play like the other games -- it's not point-to-point, etc. I was only counting the ones that play like Cruis'n USA.

The other 2 games could be bought as conversion kits to replace the original POS arcade game, once it stopped earning enough money to keep it on the floor.

So? Lots of arcade games were available as conversions. Those are sales...

This whole thing is hilarious, considering that Midway was going down the drain in profits

That's really not true. It was the early '00s where Midway's profits fell apart; through the '90s they were doing well. Midway definitely had a huge crash, though, yes -- in '96 they were one of the biggest third-party developers in the industry, but in less than a decade they were second-rate and losing money hand over fist. But in the '90s they were still doing okay.

and cutting losses left and right and closed down their arcade division a year after (the highly profitable) Cruis'n Exotica was released.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midway_Games

I wouldn't be surprised if Cruis'n Exotica was one of Midway's last successful arcade games. I'm sure it did well -- Cruis'n Exotica cabinets were VERY common for many years -- but you need more than one game, and Midway's other late arcade titles weren't as successful. Midway left arcade game development in 2001, not 2000, though, so it was two years later, not one. In 2000, Midway was still the fourth largest video game publisher.. The fourth largest, only behind, like, Nintendo, EA, and the like! They were still big. But after that they shrank FAST compared to the competition as they failed the arcade-to-home-focus transition. So yeah, when Exotica released, and a year later, Midway was still a big deal.

Still, I can understand why Midway gave up on arcades; arcades in the US were in terrible shape versus the early '80s or early '90s. Still, I do think that Midway made a mistake when they did that. What Midway did best was make arcade games and arcade-style games, and they were really, really good at it, one of the best. But once they had to make only console games, they just couldn't keep up, and it took out their company in under a decade -- Midway was shut down in 2010, under ten years after leaving arcades. I know arcades were fading badly, but Raw Thrills, founded by ex-Midway people and headlined by the famous Eugene Jarvis (Robotron, Defender, Cruis'n USA) showed that you can still have an American arcade game company, so Midway was wrong that arcades were dead; they were just a smaller market than before. Maybe had Midway just scaled back arcade production instead of killing it, maybe they could have done better... or maybe not, considering the direction the industry was going. Either way though, leaving arcades behind was the beginning of the end for Midway. Their game quality level never recovered, and nor did their profits.

I like Midway & Atari Games a lot, of course. I did this last year for instance: http://www.blackfalcongames.net/?p=105

Meanwhile, Daytona USA was so popular, that even Sega's own Daytona 2 was a hard sell, when the owners of the original Daytona were still seeing profits.

This is one thing the Cruis'n series and Raw Thrills' followups did better -- they made games that convinced arcade owners that they actually should upgrade, instead of just sticking with the old one forever. Sega didn't make money from those old Daytona machines years later, after all!

[gamevet]

The Crius'n series is garbage. End of story!

You're completely ignorant to believe that a very mediocre arcade game could come anywhere near the likes of the greatest arcade racing game of all time. The highest grossing arcade game of all time as well. Daytona was a world-wide product in arcades, while it's very unlikely that Midway was selling arcade games in Japan, and that why Midway closed their arcade division a year after Cruis'n Extreme was release; it didn't sell well enough to keep them in business.

It's like trying to compare Turok to Doom! The shit isn't comparable.

[Obviously]

What does arcade games from the 90's have to do with the current state of Japanese gaming?

[Thief]

I just played some Cruisn on the N64 emulator. All 3 of em. And man, nothing in the world is going to make me sit with these games any longer to see if there's actually any substance to this series gameplay, handling and track layout. So I'll leave it at a very early first impression outlook of this series. ie. crappy Western quality in every category (gamplay, graphics, sounds, musics, quantity over quality track layouts, handling that's not even saved when I set analog deadzone to as low as 1%, etc, etc) at it's finest. The End.

[Gogogadget]

Cruis'n sucks.

It sucked in the 90s and it sucks now.

[BonusKun]

This is all I gotta say...~

[A Black Falcon]

The Crius'n series is garbage. End of story!

They're fun games for a little while, but don't hold up for more than a few hours before they get repetitive.

You're completely ignorant to believe that a very mediocre arcade game could come anywhere near the likes of the greatest arcade racing game of all time. The highest grossing arcade game of all time as well. Daytona was a world-wide product in arcades, while it's very unlikely that Midway was selling arcade games in Japan, and that why Midway closed their arcade division a year after Cruis'n Extreme was release; it didn't sell well enough to keep them in business.

Some of the most successful games of all time are absolutely terrible, though. Lots of atrociously bad, exploitative mobile games make INSANE amounts of money! There isn't anywhere near as much of a connection between quality and success as there should be.

It's like trying to compare Turok to Doom! The shit isn't comparable.

While the idea here is decent, that's not a very good comparison; Turok is a good game which innovated in its genre. Sure, it's no Doom, but it is a quality, above-average game. Turok is a far better game than Cruis'n USA, which did nothing new (the concept is obviously inspired by Outrun and other linescroll racers, just with polygons and scaling sprites) and is a below-average game overall. The second and third Cruis'n games are better, but they're still average at best. You should be comparing Doom to something worse than Turok here.