I hate censorship

[TrekkiesUnite118]

Do we not reckon that Kim perhaps has better insight into this, and should be listened to with a bit more interest? We are lucky to have Kim on this discussion as she has direct experience and is willing to discuss the issue. We should really be asking and not telling, and when words like 'faggot' are being used a few posts back this discussion is getting beyond civil.

Kamahl was right earlier, it was all civil then, but it's gone the usual way and that's a shame really.

Crystalpepsifan is a resident troll around here. I wouldn't really take his post using the word "faggot" seriously at all. If we feel that post is a problem a mod can just delete that post.

Does Kim have a unique perspective on this? Sure. Does that mean we should Listen and Believe her without question? No. We can look at the raw data and facts for ourselves and form our own opinions and debate them. That's how debate works.

[cleeg]

Not without question, and I'm well aware of how debate works.

[KimbleJustice]

The issue I have, Trekkies, is that yes: There are high suicide rates, rates of depression etc. amongst trans people - but you want to push it being because of transition (read: getting GRS - to which I'd also say "you don't transition when you get GRS, it's happened long before that). The main problem is with society's attitudes towards trans people - that, more than anything else, can cause depression and even suicide - including amongst trans people who've had GRS and what have you, whether it's lack of acceptance from family, or the public, or friends...no matter what, we're still living in times when a stranger coming out as trans can be a front-page headline just because they were previously a squaddie. A lot of people come to transition with a lot of hang-ups, baggage attached already - it's not exactly something that happens when you're in a real good place. And no, transitioning doesn't make all of those things go away completely - including dysphoria. But it certainly helps, in my experience and in the experience of many other trans people across the world.


Onto the articles: The trouble I have with an article from 2004 is that...jeez, it was almost a completely different time. A time when there was virtually nothing positive about trans anywhere - figures of fun, freaks and perverts at best, murder victims at worst, in media and in real life. That was a time when trans people tended to disappear off the grid, yes - although I would argue that it wasn't always due to suicide and what have you. The popular wisdom in the trans community back then was that if you were trans you should go into something called "deep stealth" - which is basically living a different life, completely cut off from how you lived in your assigned gender - you don't wait for parents to disown you and the like, you just assume it will happen...basically you don't have a past and it's like the freaking Witness Protection Program and transition just never happened...does this sound like a good thing? Of course not - deep stealth was/is, in my view, really freaking harmful. But it is true that the majority of trans people, once they've finished their transition, just go about and try to live a normal life - they don't stick around to be loud on the Internet.

...Things have come a long way since then, even if there's still a ways to go. It's more OK to actually be trans, and to talk about your experiences, your past and the like. There are a lot of positive role models, and representation has gotten better...far from perfect, but way better than what it was. Which brings me onto credibility: I'd like to be able to fulfill your request...here's an article about "sex change regret" myths from HuffPo: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn-...b_6160626.html - of course it's written by Brynn Tannehill, a proud trans woman. Does that change your view on it? I don't ask that flippantly, but it's quite difficult to find pieces that aren't informed by some sort of agenda. While that Guardian article did approach people like Christine Burns and workers at GIC's, it did lay an agenda out of supplementing a weekend piece about sex change regret stories - naturally, that piece is not coming from a neutral standpoint. And hell, searching "sex change regret" on Google: The pages are filled with articles mostly from neo-conservative webpages like Breitbart and the Federalist, or tabloids...do they not have an agenda too? The Guardian piece (on the bottom of page 1) even manages to stand out somewhat there through not being quite as hysterical.

TransAdvocate (no relation to The Advocate, a more general pro-LGBT site/periodical) is obviously going to be pro-trans no matter what, but it is a legitimate website staffed by legitimate journalists that has been quoted as such in wider media. It's no more or less valid than many other sources that have been used largely without question in this topic and I think it deserves a bit more service than just hand waving it because of the name. It's quite difficult to find news articles and pieces that don't have some sort of wider agenda informing them, is my main point.

[GriskaGyoran]

Pills suppress depression and schizophrenia as well as Ukrainians suppress Russians from "justly" invading the Crimean peninsula. Does Pimozide suppress gender dysphoria in transgender individuals born intersexed? I mean it's clearly cheaper than hormones, and doesn't have any Ill side effects, right?
But yah, you transgender faggots are clearly just uppity about your own political mental illness.

Intersexed is quite a confusing subject, and far rarer than people like to think. Can a girly man be considered intersexed? No, he was just gifted with unfortunate genetics. However hermaphrodites and similar are extremely rare and are probably best left to individual cases. I mean most cases the extra genitals are vestigial, as in non-functioning. But intersexed cases where pimozide was used are non-existent since the actual condition is so rare and for some reason it isn't commonly used as treatment for such a thing. Of course this is for REAL intersex cases and not someone who pretends/claims they have genitals that aren't there.

As far as hormone therapy, there are A LOT of cases of cancer related to it, not limited to transexual surgeries and treatments. If I can hazard a guess as to why, it could be because you are introducing hormones into the body that are not supposed to be there, or in those concentrations. And for trans people not having a mental disorder, I sincerely don't see why it isn't. I am not trying to be a jerk here, it has all the signs of being which. Let's say it is biological and in one's genes, that doesn't automatically exclude it. We have something called Down's Syndrome which is considered a chromosomal disorder, mental and physical at the same time, the latter 2 being a direct result of the first one, but cannot be excluded. Unless... wait a minute, what country are you from?

[TrekkiesUnite118]

The issue I have, Trekkies, is that yes: There are high suicide rates, rates of depression etc. amongst trans people - but you want to push it being because of transition (read: getting GRS - to which I'd also say "you don't transition when you get GRS, it's happened long before that). The main problem is with society's attitudes towards trans people - that, more than anything else, can cause depression and even suicide - including amongst trans people who've had GRS and what have you, whether it's lack of acceptance from family, or the public, or friends...no matter what, we're still living in times when a stranger coming out as trans can be a front-page headline just because they were previously a squaddie. A lot of people come to transition with a lot of hang-ups, baggage attached already - it's not exactly something that happens when you're in a real good place. And no, transitioning doesn't make all of those things go away completely - including dysphoria. But it certainly helps, in my experience and in the experience of many other trans people across the world.

I'm not saying that societal issues aren't a possible cause. What I'm saying is that Transition does not seem to be the be all fix all solution since a significant number of people are clearly still depressed afterwards and some come to regret it. Those two things are facts and need to be addressed with more unbiased research.

Onto the articles: The trouble I have with an article from 2004 is that...jeez, it was almost a completely different time. A time when there was virtually nothing positive about trans anywhere - figures of fun, freaks and perverts at best, murder victims at worst, in media and in real life. That was a time when trans people tended to disappear off the grid, yes - although I would argue that it wasn't always due to suicide and what have you. The popular wisdom in the trans community back then was that if you were trans you should go into something called "deep stealth" - which is basically living a different life, completely cut off from how you lived in your assigned gender - you don't wait for parents to disown you and the like, you just assume it will happen...basically you don't have a past and it's like the freaking Witness Protection Program and transition just never happened...does this sound like a good thing? Of course not - deep stealth was/is, in my view, really freaking harmful. But it is true that the majority of trans people, once they've finished their transition, just go about and try to live a normal life - they don't stick around to be loud on the Internet.

It was only 12 years ago. And it was still in the modern progressive era. We're not talking about the 1950's here. And the article even touches on people going off the grid saying "More investigation needs to be done to figure out what happened to those people who disappeared from the studies." The point is, it looks into 100's of different studies and points out that they all show a high level of depression, suicide, and other mental illnesses.

...Things have come a long way since then, even if there's still a ways to go. It's more OK to actually be trans, and to talk about your experiences, your past and the like. There are a lot of positive role models, and representation has gotten better...far from perfect, but way better than what it was. Which brings me onto credibility: I'd like to be able to fulfill your request...here's an article about "sex change regret" myths from HuffPo: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn-...b_6160626.html - of course it's written by Brynn Tannehill, a proud trans woman. Does that change your view on it? I don't ask that flippantly, but it's quite difficult to find pieces that aren't informed by some sort of agenda. While that Guardian article did approach people like Christine Burns and workers at GIC's, it did lay an agenda out of supplementing a weekend piece about sex change regret stories - naturally, that piece is not coming from a neutral standpoint. And hell, searching "sex change regret" on Google: The pages are filled with articles mostly from neo-conservative webpages like Breitbart and the Federalist, or tabloids...do they not have an agenda too? The Guardian piece (on the bottom of page 1) even manages to stand out somewhat there through not being quite as hysterical.

Can you actually link to scientific studies? Looking at the ones linked in that article many aren't even doing research. They're just preaching their beliefs. The few that did do research are using small sample sizes and some are just 1 interview for a few hours with no later follow up. That's not good science. There needs to be long term research with numerous follow ups. Those few long term studies that have been done do tend to point to high levels of regret, depression, and suicide. 20% rates may not be the majority, but it is still a significant portion of the people having these treatments.

As for right-leaning articles, what about the ones written by former transgender people? What about their experiences? The point here is that there is a significant amount of people who have regret, depression, etc. after transition. I think it's more responsible as a society to instead do more research into what causes Transgenderism and see if there are better treatments instead of using Transition as a one size fits all kind of treatment when it clearly doesn't work for everyone.

TransAdvocate (no relation to The Advocate, a more general pro-LGBT site/periodical) is obviously going to be pro-trans no matter what, but it is a legitimate website staffed by legitimate journalists that has been quoted as such in wider media. It's no more or less valid than many other sources that have been used largely without question in this topic and I think it deserves a bit more service than just hand waving it because of the name. It's quite difficult to find news articles and pieces that don't have some sort of wider agenda informing them, is my main point.

You can use it, but we have the right to call out any bias it has as well. If you can't find ones that are not biased, then go to the data and research.

[KimbleJustice]

Can you actually link to scientific studies?

....Cool. You can link to an article that doesn't link to any scientific studies, I link to one that links to multiple scientific studies (in fact, I have a hunch it references the one that spawned from your article) but obviously it's all bollocks because you don't agree with it. We've clearly reached an end here.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

....Cool. You can link to an article that doesn't link to any scientific studies, I link to one that links to multiple scientific studies (in fact, I have a hunch it references the one that spawned from your article)

Looks like the links in the one I linked to no longer work. My bad. Though it was talking about a combination of 100 different studies and what they found in reviewing them. Your two articles are instead one person going "No no! My reseach is being misinterpreted because correlation != causation!" I read the interview. The main argument is "Well yes the Suicide Rate is higher, but we can't confirm it's due to the transition!" While yes that's true we can't say one causes the other, it's still an alarming statistic that prompts for more research on the subject. She cites that Bipolar and Schizophrenia also have high suicide rates, but no one throws a hissy fit when we do more research into those disorders and look for better treatments that could reduce that issue.

The other was simply "This all bullshit and myth because I said so, here's some shady research to back it up." A lot of the research in that article either isn't an actual study but instead someone preaching their views, or it's very poor research. Not to mention the other one you posted is Huffington Post, which is a pretty far left leaning news source that clearly pushes agendas on numerous topics. Just look at how unprofessional they've been over Donald Trump this election season.

Where's the research from the more reputable medical sources? All I've asked from you is to provide something that is not biased, not from a source that clearly pushes an agenda, and one that has good quality research to back it up. You've yet to do any of that.

but obviously it's all bollocks because you don't agree with it.

How is that any different from how you've behaved in this topic by saying other studies and other peoples experiences are bullshit because you didn't agree with them? Just because someone may be right leaning doesn't mean their opinion is invalid, or that the research they've done and data they've compiled is bad or wrong.

It's not even like what's being suggested here is outrageous or hurtful. All that's been said here is that we still don't know what causes Transgenderism and we should probably do more research to see if there's a better solution. The current solution of transition is not a fix all solution since there are people it doesn't work for and there is a suicide and depression issue that needs to be addressed.

I really don't see why you're getting so upset when the only thing being suggested is more research.

[Raijin Z]

Didn't you know? Peer review is bullying! Anyway, of the people I ████████████ in regards to suicide, very few state that their reasons are because of self-perceived dysmorphia, though I am familiar with the studies mentioned. I don't doubt them, because if you're not happy with yourself to the point where you cannot tolerate your own existence, suicide is surest way out, if not the swiftest. Even then, the places I hang out tend to attract loners who don't care about their bodies beyond avoiding injury or preventable illness, so it's not like my experiences are any sort of counterpoint. Maybe I'm just rambling. Many of the people I speak with have the usual issues of severe depression due to long stretches of bad times, incurable conditions, lifelong health problems, loss of freedom and mobility due to accident or assault. You know, problems brought about from external sources, or problems that manifested in a medically-verifiable manner internally. These people tend to ask for help, not in changing their mindset, but in doing the job without ending up a vegetable.

What is the point of releasing a game based on WWII if there is no mention of Hitler or the Nazi party? Why release an FPS with no blo- oh wait, Chex Quest, carry on. I hate the ████ out of green peppers, but if the recipe calls for them, and people like the meal with them in the dish, then I cook with them. I don't make everyone bow to my taste. Unless it's in the case of desserts. It's my way or the highway in that arena.

[Yharnamresident]

I haven't read all the new posts in this thread. I was gonna do it on a rainy night, which is not right now.


But it turns out that Milo guy posted on the first page, has the same views as me on transgenderism. It just shows that I'm not cherry picking the 2% of articles that have the same view as me.

http://yiannopoulos.net/2014/08/15/t...y-not-surgery/

We almost wrote the exact same thing:

Yet nothing could be further from the truth. There are people who believe their own limbs don’t belong to them. They suffer from something called body integrity identity disorder, which is rare, and generally affects white middle-aged men. (No one knows why.) Doctors, understandably, tend not to hack off the offending limbs to make reality concord with fantasy.

I don't think transgenders are the single unique case of mental illness, where you must support their desires.

In no other instance do you support stuff like this. If a person thinks his legs are trying to make him do dangerous stuff, you don't give him a chainsaw. If a person thinks hes a dog, you don't put him in a doghouse and walk him with a lease.