Sonic Mania/ Sonic Mania Plus (XB1, PS4, PC, Switch)

[j_factor]

Name some games. In it's defense I site the classic Castlevania games, Mega Man, Sonic and Metroid. Works great in these games.

I don't know how much worse it actually is, but I found the recoil very bothersome in Castlevania: Dracula X. It felt like I was getting thrown across the screen half the time.

[Gogogadget]

That's just Dracula X for you, it's not the best designed of classic Castlevania games.

[Thief]

I don't know how much worse it actually is, but I found the recoil very bothersome in Castlevania: Dracula X. It felt like I was getting thrown across the screen half the time.

Well let me put it this way, if not for dmg recoil, players would just be dmg boosting through all difficult sections.

[j_factor]

Well let me put it this way, if not for dmg recoil, players would just be dmg boosting through all difficult sections.

There should generally be a recoil -- that's one thing I don't like about Turrican -- but there's such a thing as too much. And ideally you would have some degree of control over your landing IMO.

[Barone]

Eh... people do like the Master System Sonic the Hedgehogs.

I don't doubt they like it but do they like it better than the MD ones? I've seen that claim here and there, but it never seemed to be a popular opinion.

And it just seems it's more about 8-bit style platformers vs 16-bit ones. Not exactly this or that game being better.
The SMS can't pull off the same physics and speed so it will favor exploration instead. Then people who prefer exploration may say "Oh, the SMS version is better".
However, what is Sonic with degraded physics, more limited maps, iffy frame rate, etc?

It's not a stretch of the imagination to say some people prefer them. That being said, Redifer would have to show a bit of proof. Outside of Europe and emulation, who's really played it or even owned them?

This

That and the first Donkey Kong Country are severely overrated.

Totally.

He's just trying to build notoriety around his show.

It feels like.

[IrishNinja]

just wanted to co-sign DKC being overrated - looks & sounds fantastic, but it's not one of the better platformers of that era

[Sik]

Name some games. In it's defense I site the classic Castlevania games, Mega Man, Sonic and Metroid. Works great in these games.

On Castlevania: medusa heads say hi (they're really hard to avoid, come in groups, and pretty much always in areas full of pits).

In fact, pretty much any game that puts enemies close to bottomless pits is problematic when they have recoil.

[Thief]

On Castlevania: medusa heads say hi (they're really hard to avoid, come in groups, and pretty much always in areas full of pits).

In fact, pretty much any game that puts enemies close to bottomless pits is problematic when they have recoil.

So in a STG when an enemy waves move at you in a Medusa pattern and one shots you, it's also the devs fault for making the enemy pattern too hard to avoid or making the game a 1 hit wonder?

Now if you want an easier game, go play the cart Famicon version of Castlevania 1, select easy to remove knockbacks, and presto. You can now enjoy Castlevania from a more modern gaming perspective.

[stu]

That's not what he's saying. Stop bitching. You're making a game out to be really bad when in reality it isn't. Get better at Unleashed or don't say anything. It is far from awful.

You piss off. Get better.

Didn't you recently get a timeout from here for starting retarded arguments with forum members? Sounds like you might need another.

A lot of people don't like Sonic Unleashed, me included. If you can't handle that then that's your issue. The daytime levels were ok, however the night time levels played like a kids version God of War game that was slow and monotonous and the travel sections where you had to shoot down the missiles with the correct button press were frustrating and stupid too. I disliked the game so much I gave away my copy for free to a family friend. The only 3D Sonic games that I've gotten enjoyment out of are Colors and Generations, but neither are as good as the original games.

[Sik]

So in a STG when an enemy waves move at you in a Medusa pattern and one shots you, it's also the devs fault for making the enemy pattern too hard to avoid or making the game a 1 hit wonder?

In those games you can move around vertically freely, in Castlevania your only way to move vertically is jumping (and having gravity do the job).

EDIT: also, in a shmup usually you just have to be in front of something to shoot at it (no matter how far away). Not the case in Castlevania where you need to be close to the enemy as well =P (depending on the weapon, but if you only have the basic one you practically have to be next to them)

[Bottino]

Yeah, that comparison makes no sense at all. I love the classic Castlevanias, but those medusa heads are probably the cheapest challenge in it's games.

The recoil in Dracula X is indeed a bit too much, but looking specifically at the boss battles I think that it matches very well. Well I'm a big sucker for the boss battles in that game anyway.

[Thief]

In those games you can move around vertically freely, in Castlevania your only way to move vertically is jumping (and having gravity do the job).

EDIT: also, in a shmup usually you just have to be in front of something to shoot at it (no matter how far away). Not the case in Castlevania where you need to be close to the enemy as well =P (depending on the weapon, but if you only have the basic one you practically have to be next to them)

Knew you were going to say that, so I held out and left the bait. Those games also have more enemies and other obstacles, meanwhile Castlevania only has one medusa head. If you want Simon Belmont to have more control, then it will end up more like a Contra game then Castlevania. Videogame critics really need to learn the controls dev's give the player dictate the game around it. Some of the best games have limited controls because they allow more focus and ease at developing a tighter package. Over complicate things and the more balance issues end up in the final package. Give players too much control, end up with a full body motion capture VR game.

Many games also had knockbacks back in the day for a reason. Either that or go Western development school of thought mental and remove i-frames.

[Thief]

I'm also reminded on how AVGN says "Why is it that only Contra got the controls right for a run 'n gun?" Oh, so now because Metal Slug limits player control more then Contra it's flawed or not modern enough?

But back to Sonic, what do you guys propose for removal of knockbacks? Eliminating i-frames? Removing ability to regrab rings? Make all enemies take more hits and make bosses dmg soaks? No thanks, I'll stick with good ol' tried and true knock backs, thank you.

[Sik]

Just to make it clear: note that I'm not on the side who hates knockbacks (I can't think of many places where Sonic is cheap with them). I was just bringing up that I've run into many people who think knockbacks by themselves are a fatal design flaw though.

Knew you were going to say that, so I held out and left the bait. Those games also have more enemies and other obstacles, meanwhile Castlevania only has one medusa head. If you want Simon Belmont to have more control, then it will end up more like a Contra game then Castlevania. Videogame critics really need to learn the controls dev's give the player dictate the game around it. Some of the best games have limited controls because they allow more focus and ease at developing a tighter package. Over complicate things and the more balance issues end up in the final package. Give players too much control, end up with a full body motion capture VR game.

Many games also had knockbacks back in the day for a reason. Either that or go Western development school of thought mental and remove i-frames.

Putting enemies that are notoriously hard to dodge explicitly in places where failure to dodge is a nearly guaranteed instadeath (where every other enemy would not be prone to do that) is just plain cheap no matter what. Especially in a game where you can't even practice the challenge easily since you're going to get game overs all the time forcing you to redo a significant part of the game before you get a second chance.

The problem is more the combination of everything. Medusa heads wouldn't be anywhere as annoying if they weren't put in places full of pits, for example.

But back to Sonic, what do you guys propose for removal of knockbacks? Eliminating i-frames? Removing ability to regrab rings? Make all enemies take more hits and make bosses dmg soaks? No thanks, I'll stick with good ol' tried and true knock backs, thank you.

Probably just going straight to flashing without the knockback (which is actually what most games without knockback do).

[Thief]

Just to make it clear: note that I'm not on the side who hates knockbacks (I can't think of many places where Sonic is cheap with them). I was just bringing up that I've run into many people who think knockbacks by themselves are a fatal design flaw though.

I know, me too.

Putting enemies that are notoriously hard to dodge explicitly in places where failure to dodge is a nearly guaranteed instadeath (where every other enemy would not be prone to do that) is just plain cheap no matter what. Especially in a game where you can't even practice the challenge easily since you're going to get game overs all the time forcing you to redo a significant part of the game before you get a second chance.

I know, right? These days if a stage can't be beaten on first try without dying, it's a design flaw. Why all these old games getting re-released these days have state saves to save them from their design flaws.

JProbably just going straight to flashing without the knockback (which is actually what most games without knockback do).

I-frames without the knockback means you can abuse those i-frames to spam extra hits on enemies and bosses faster. Why I mentioned increase in enemy health. But now the game is balanced around abusing i-frames, especially if you can re-grab your rings, then bosses and enemies won't stand a chance. .... And lets not forget now having the ability to dmg boost/i-frame boost past difficult sections, meaning ring re-grab will for sure have to be removed or Sonic can blow through all enemies and stage hazards in infinite i-frame mode.

Again, knockbacks existed in so many games for a reason, it's the best solution to many gameplay types back then or in turn gave us great designed games. Including Sonic. Only games that didn't need knockbacks are the ones without health bars and very limited powerups, a la Mario.