Sonic Mania/ Sonic Mania Plus (XB1, PS4, PC, Switch)

[Benjamin]

I think the problem here is that if one wants modern standards, that's precisely what Sonic Forces is for. There's a reason why they decided to make two separate games at the same time.

We can want a faithful 2-D Sonic and still wish for modern aesthetics and improvements, no? Why are current visual expectations not within reach of a good playing, 16-bit faithful Sonic game when fan games like Sonic Fan Remix are capable of doing just that? Would a Sega Saturn Sonic have still been stuck with 16-bit graphics? A 2-D Dreamcast Sonic? I feel like with Sonic Mania, Sega is inadvertently saying that the only way to make Sonic "good" is to keep him stuck in the past.

I'd like to think that for Sega's flashship mascot, we can at least get something on par with Nintendo's New Super Mario Bros., itself a homage to a past series but with a variety of visual and gameplay enhancements which keep it feeling fresh in spite of its lineage. I'd like to think a new 2-D Sonic can at least match the level of graphics of 1995's Astal or 2001's Klonoa 2. My hope is that Sonic Mania has done well enough to warrant the budget for something similar. As it stands, it still feels and looks like a fan game with a budget, but hopefully it'll serve as a test bed for better things to come in the future.

[Raijin Z]

I'm not going to call for masterpiece-level 2D spriting as the "necessary evolution" of classic games' graphics. SF2HD was something of a mess.

[Alianger]

Much prefer how Mania looks compared to "fan remix" or NSMB or Klonoa 2, and Generations (didn't play it but also Colors to an extent and it was a pretty good game) already did that anyway. Astal? Not sure the style would work for Sonic.

[QuickSciFi]

Sonic Colors, Sonic Generations and Sonic All Stars Racing Transformed were fantastic. All memorable and enjoyable experiences. Also the 3DS games Shattered Crystal and Fire & Ice. I'm seeing an almost Metroidvania push as of late, and I love it. I haven't played Lost World yet, so I can't wait. I hear Rise of Lyric isn't as good, but also want to tackle that one. And as for Forces, I am mega stoked about it.

[cabear]

Sega is inadvertently saying that the only way to make Sonic "good" is to keep him stuck in the past.

I'd like to think that for Sega's flashship mascot, we can at least get something on par with Nintendo's New Super Mario Bros.

I applaud sega making SM because it felt like a return to what made sonic good, some say it feels rom hacky, others hate the levels and such. I'm loving it because it's all that and more. It feels like a bastard child of Sonic CD (those weird ass level designs) and Sonic and Knuckles (The progression and the feel). Would i like the game to have been drawn like Odin Sphere? hell yes but i think the problem with redoing and updating sonic is, which version of him do you update? i love the classic, pudgy look that SM has, but others may enjoy his newer, skinnier look or whatever. Whichever you pick, one part of the sonic fanbase is going to be like "ew, no thanks".

mario has had a more steady, consistent look since his jump to 3d. he didn't get taller and skinnier, none of those characters really changed much so their look is easier to update i would guess.

[Sik]

We can want a faithful 2-D Sonic and still wish for modern aesthetics and improvements, no? Why are current visual expectations not within reach of a good playing, 16-bit faithful Sonic game when fan games like Sonic Fan Remix are capable of doing just that? Would a Sega Saturn Sonic have still been stuck with 16-bit graphics? A 2-D Dreamcast Sonic? I feel like with Sonic Mania, Sega is inadvertently saying that the only way to make Sonic "good" is to keep him stuck in the past.

If you tell me graphics with modern standards, I'm going to be thinking on the 2D levels of Sonic Generations (and honestly those graphics are probably what everybody would have expected modern 2D games to look like). Sonic Fan Remix looks like utter crap in comparison. And as for Generations: Sega had already decided that they're going to be following those up in Sonic Forces, hence my comment that people who complain should look for that instead.

I'd like to think that for Sega's flashship mascot, we can at least get something on par with Nintendo's New Super Mario Bros., itself a homage to a past series but with a variety of visual and gameplay enhancements which keep it feeling fresh in spite of its lineage.

And everybody keeps complaining about New Super Mario Bros precisely for the same reason people are now complaining about Sonic Mania: they're nothing new compared to the older 2D games, just new levels with relatively minor gameplay changes (unlike the wild experimenting going on with the NES and SNES games).


By the way, unpopular opinion: Sonic Mania is not going to get a sequel because that'd probably make Sonic Team unhappy (it's not their game, and they definitely won't like the idea of Mania being more popular than Forces, and I really doubt Forces is going to change much the overall opinion on the 3D games).

[Thief]

Is there a way to only play the 2D stages in Generations?

[Raijin Z]

The fact that 3D Sonic games are still being made damages any argument against the validity of Sonic Mania's existence, compared to what's happening with SMB.

[Benjamin]

[...] i think the problem with redoing and updating sonic is, which version of him do you update? i love the classic, pudgy look that SM has, but others may enjoy his newer, skinnier look or whatever. Whichever you pick, one part of the sonic fanbase is going to be like "ew, no thanks".

mario has had a more steady, consistent look since his jump to 3d. he didn't get taller and skinnier, none of those characters really changed much so their look is easier to update i would guess.

Eh, Nintendo has successfully altered the appearance of Link across a dozen or so games. Mario and Kirby have had their appearances altered, sometimes pretty drastically as in Paper Mario or Kirby Epic Yarn. I think the problem is that Sega pretty clearly killed off the old Sonic design for the past 20 or so years, and Sonic Generations defined them as separate entities instead of doing as Nintendo does and just adapting them to the style of the game. I wish it weren't so -- I'd love to see a Sonic game where Sonic appears as he does in those Japanese doodles -- but it's the hole Sonic finds himself in.

If you tell me graphics with modern standards, I'm going to be thinking on the 2D levels of Sonic Generations (and honestly those graphics are probably what everybody would have expected modern 2D games to look like).

Yeah, pretty much. Give me a Sonic with the visual quality of Sonic Generations but which plays like Sonic 1-M and level design of Sonic 1-2, and I'm completely happy. From what I've seen of Fusion, it looks as though the "classic" stages play pretty close to 16-bit Sonic, so I am looking forward to that. I just wish it weren't straddled to 3-D Sonic.

And everybody keeps complaining about New Super Mario Bros precisely for the same reason people are now complaining about Sonic Mania: they're nothing new compared to the older 2D games, just new levels with relatively minor gameplay changes (unlike the wild experimenting going on with the NES and SNES games).

New Super Mario Bros. only resembles SMB in that it's a side scrolling with an obvious inspiration. All graphics are new. All levels are new. The gameplay is completely enhanced. The only complaints I've read about NSMB have been from people who just hate 2-D gameplay and see it as a step backwards or fans enjoying the game but wishing it were more difficult.

As far as Sonic Mania not getting a sequel, it most definitely will. Maybe not a branded Sonic Mania 2, but it's going to get something. It's too successful to not follow up. Remember Sega's announcement last year (?) about righting the ship and all that. If we're to believe that -- and I'll give the company a chance to prove it meant what it said -- then I see no reason why Sega would not go forward with a follow-up of some kind.

[Metalwario64]

I've never heard of fan remix, but damn that is shader hell.

[Blades]

By the way, unpopular opinion: Sonic Mania is not going to get a sequel because that'd probably make Sonic Team unhappy (it's not their game, and they definitely won't like the idea of Mania being more popular than Forces, and I really doubt Forces is going to change much the overall opinion on the 3D games).

Sega only cares about $$$. If Sonic Mania outsells Sonic Forces by a huge margin, we could have a mass firing on our hands.

That would suck. I like all the Sonic games.

[Raijin Z]

Sega is already hiring what is essentially a PR manager for Europe. If I read between the lines properly, someone got canned for mismanaging Sonic Mania for PC (or not spinning the Denuvo thing with enough skill).

[j_factor]

By the way, unpopular opinion: Sonic Mania is not going to get a sequel because that'd probably make Sonic Team unhappy (it's not their game, and they definitely won't like the idea of Mania being more popular than Forces, and I really doubt Forces is going to change much the overall opinion on the 3D games).

Sonic Rush got a sequel, and it was in pretty much the same situation.

[Sik]

I think the problem is that Sega pretty clearly killed off the old Sonic design for the past 20 or so years, and Sonic Generations defined them as separate entities instead of doing as Nintendo does and just adapting them to the style of the game.

They just tried to make classic Sonic be his younger self.

For the record though, I've been doing some analysis and it does seem like there's a timeline split between classic Sonic games and what came from Sonic Adventure onwards (Chaotix comes after S3K if you go by the Japanese manual... and then there isn't much connecting Adventure onwards with the earlier games aside from occasional callbacks). It could be perfectly possible that they're indeed separate after all.

Then again they're probably just screwing around and seeing what can be crammed in =v

Sega is already hiring what is essentially a PR manager for Europe. If I read between the lines properly, someone got canned for mismanaging Sonic Mania for PC (or not spinning the Denuvo thing with enough skill).

The irony is that I have the feeling the issue may not have been Denuvo but Steamworks. In fact, the more I hear about it, it seems Denuvo is not a whole DRM in itself but rather just an antitampering measure to prevent weaker DRM from being cracked (and Steamworks is otherwise notoriously easy to patch around).

The issue was definitely some form of DRM going awry regardless and DRM in general sucks =P

[Kamahl]

Denuvo is anti-tamper software, it is meant to protect the game (and included DRM schemes like Steamworks) from modification. The hate for Denuvo is overblown, but it's not a harmless thing either. It requires it's own online authentication to work (beyond just steam), particularly if you make any hardware changes, but also from time to time. It prevents Wine from working, so games that could be coerced to work on Linux, cannot because of it. Like other DRM or anti-tamper software, if the company goes down or stops supporting an older version, the game stops working unless some nice pirate cracks it.