Pier Solar: Official Thread

[Xonticus]

Valve is a big exception to the rule. Ever since the introduction of Steam, Valve has effectively been their own publisher, so they have nobody to answer to but themselves. Sure, they've got some deals with other publishers for physical releases, but in all those cases it's been Valve pulling the ropes, while the publishers just had to be happy they could share some of Valve's success.

Besides that, I'm sure that behind the scenes the people at Valve are a highly disciplines bunch, working under strict deadlines for each project. They just appear on the outside to have this "when it's done" mentality, because after all they get to decide for themselves when they think a project will be done.

Getting back to the topic at hand, I'd like to emphasize that my criticism here is not because I mistrust WM or lack of faith that they'll ever finish the game. On the contrary, I honestly sympathize with them, because I can imagine that the pressure and expectations are becoming grueling by now, and working on the project probably isn't as much fun anymore as when they started. I wish them all the best in their efforts and sincerely hope they can release themselves from this burden very soon.

Even so, I do think some constructive criticism here is certainly justified. I think the guys at WM have grossly underestimated what they were getting themselves into and are now in way over their heads. During the process, they made some serious mistakes and promises were made that they realistically could never keep. I don't mean to rub it in, but it definitely needs to be said. Let's hope it's been a good learning experience.

Agreed. Well said.

[Chilly Willy]

I don't think they're in it "way over their heads", they just underestimated how much work it is, and how long it takes working on it part-time. From the demo and the videos, they CLEARLY have the skills needed to complete the job, they just need (a lot) more time than they originally expected. If you haven't worked on a similar project in the past, that's an easy mistake to make. From the progress they've made, it's clear they WILL get the game finished, but it will take (much) longer than expected. Given that it IS clear they will finish (eventually), I don't see a need to worry about my pre-order. Besides, they haven't taken as long as SOME projects - a recent Dreamcast game finally got released after SIX YEARS of work.

[elefas]

Me personally, I am confident and patient. I have preordered months ago and I will not request my money back unless the project gets cancelled. Since WM team gone the commercial way they are commited to deliver something technically flawless and complete so it is going to take more time than expected. So be patient, we all want the game to be released and to enjoy some 16-bit RPG fun like we did decades ago.

[Melf]

I knew when I preordered my copy that it was going to take a long time before being completed and was perfectly aware this project was handled by a non-professional team, I mean people having real life/real jobs too (and it seems some of them devoted their full time to this project recently), they made no mystery about that.

WM is a team of non-profit and volunteer game developers, which means unexpected things can happen that you can't plan for. Well, that pertains to most developers, but it's not like they can devote all their time to this project as it is. Setbacks happen, members leave and then they are pushed back a few steps in trying to re-make what was lost.

See, this bothers me. You can't hide behind the "we're not professionals. We only do this part time" excuse when you've already taken people's money. If you're making a game and have no idea when it will be done, you don't charge people ahead of time for it. That way, you owe nothing to no one and are under no pressure.

However, when you tell people to pre-order or lose out and then take their money, you no longer have the luxury of working under a relaxed schedule. People have already paid (in full) for a product, and you owe them. I know the circumstances under which this game is being produced, and I have every reason to believe that it will be released and be great. I just don't think you can hide behind the amateur facade when you're charging people like you're a company. You took their money? You have to deal with their feedback.

Give them some damned slack, if you ask me. Demanding things adds a ton of pressure, and to unrealistically ask for a deadline time like you are their publisher is downright rude. They aren't required to give you a definite outline timetable.

Um, yes they are, since they've already charged for it. And it's funny that you should compare buyers to publishers. Publishers front the money for development of games, and they don't tell the developers "take our cash and finish the game whenever." Developers have to set certain realistic milestones with approximate dates AND REPORT BACK TO THE PUBLISHER WITH THEIR PROGRESS. You know what's rude? Criticizing someone for wanting to know when the game they paid for in full a year ago will come out. Most of the people here who are commenting have already paid for their copy. They have every right to bitch.

Do paid developers/publishers give you a timetable and when big setbacks happen (anyone remember half life 2?) do you call them out and demand blood? No, you don't. Just because this is a small time operation does not give you the right to try and bully them into giving you some timetable just to shut you up.

Again, paid developers give timetables to their publishers, you know, THE PEOPLE WHO GAVE THEM THE MONEY FOR DEVELOPMENT? No one's bullying anyone here. Let's do something then, since you have no problems with people taking your money with no clear idea when the product they're selling will be in your hands. I'm going to draw you a picture. It'll be a pretty one! Just send me $50, and I'll send it you when it's finished. I don't know when that'll be, but you can't rush me, since I'm not a professional artist and don't do this full-time. But it'll be worth it!

I'll PM you my PayPal information, so you can send payment. You have no problem with that, right?

Actually I will give you a time table if you so want... here it is:

The game will be finished when it is done.

If this is the case, then no money should have been taken. They should have said "pay us when it's done," not "pre-order now or lose out."

We are also dumb for not publically telling everything about each development decision, like all professional game publishers have done with all their delayed games.

I don't care if Miyamoto delays the new Mario game six months, because I haven't paid for it yet. There's a difference.

Honestly, I know Water Melon is working its ass off to get this game done, and it looks awesome. I just think that you can't dismiss angry customers who have already paid in full with "we're not professionals." As someone who paid a year ago, I think that people have a right to question the development schedule and even be irritated if they feel that way. Hell, the pressure might even be good for things.

[Lorfarius]

Melf has put some very good points across. I find I have to agree, it shouldn't come as no surprise that people are anxious or curious to know what's happening after a year or so having paid and very little news to tide people over. It wouldn't take that much to provide more updates and I know one of the people involved (matteus) said earlier it would spoil the game but I find that very odd to say. The game can't be a few screenshots long after all

A lot of people are looking forward to this and you just need to read the official forum to see them clammering for more information. I think more tidbits would help ease the pain and it wouldn't be that hard to provide more (the other vids and screenshots currently on the site don't ruin anything after all!).

[retrospiel]

One thing I remember is that they started taking pre-orders at a time when they obviously made some good progress and it seemed the game wouldn't take too long anymore to complete.

But then, a few months later down the road, they lost their main graphics guy over a dispute on certain sentences in a Non-Disclosure-Agreement.

As a result they decided to scrap all his previous contributions to the game - presumably because they felt that without being able to use the material under the terms of the NDA they would be vulnerable to financial claims when [re-]releasing the game later down the road.

It would be safe to assume that loosing this artist and the contributions he made during more than one and a half year was quite a major setback.


The good thing about this is that the game's engine itself had a chance to keep growing as Fonzie and Tulio got more time to keep working on the code.

I would wait some five more years, if only it would guarantee the game's released at the best possible level of quality.

[grolt]

Waiting sucks, and I've been pre-ordered for close to a year now, but at the same time it would be better to play a great game later than a good game now. I'm sure we all have hundreds of games (probably on the Genesis alone) that we haven't yet given a good shot that deserve our time (I'm finally just traversing Phantasy Star II after playing the first one to death). Until I complete all the good old school RPGs out there (which will probably be never) then I don't really have any grounds to complain, since there's always something out there to fill up my limited time.

Just take it easy and have comfort that you've invested in letting a fan project like this come to fruition. That's a pretty special feeling.

[matteus]

I'll talk to Fonz and Tulio about possible screenshots... I know fonz is very against it as he believes it'll spoil the game for a lot of people. I disagree with him but at the end of the day both him and Tulio are the big blokes who head the project, so I can only go on their wishes

[N.Saibot]

I think I have to disagree with Melf about the WM-team beeing in a different situation after
receiving payments from us. I think the WM team has all the rights in the world to excuse
themselves by the "we're not professionals" phrase.

It is not like they actually _took_ our money. We gave our money to them, thats what
happened. Willingly. And we gave so much, that they even don't take any preorders for the
european version anymore. No one forced us to pre-order, it's just that the demo and the
screenshots and the videos looked so good and promising. So we made a decision and
_gave our money to WM_. No one was forcing us to. It's a totally private thing and I don't
see a reason why we should be bitching about them taking so long.

The complaints won't help, they will only piss off the developers more and more, so they'll
eventually release a buggy game. The best possibility would be, the complaints won't
change anything. So I say we should stop complaining and go on with our lives without a
brand new RPG for the Mega Drive. How long did we survived without a brand new RPG for
the Mega Drive? Can't we wait a bit more?

And one last thing: if it is a hoax, then the most unprofitable ever. The guys actually had to
make a demo, some videos and they are charging us only $35, which is quite a bit less
then Beggar Prince costs. If WM and Pier Solar were a hoax, wouldn't they try to make as
much profite as possible without any work whatsoever? If they are a hoax they failed
miserably. So they aren't. They are working on the game. It just happens to be, that they
need even more time then already passed. It sucks, but there is no other way as to just
patiently wait.

[Phantar]

Not to rain onto your parade here, but:

It is not like they actually _took_ our money. We gave our money to them, thats what happened. Willingly. And we gave so much, that they even don't take any preorders for the european version anymore. No one forced us to pre-order, it's just that the demo and the screenshots and the videos looked so good and promising. So we made a decision and _gave our money to WM_. No one was forcing us to. It's a totally private thing and I don't see a reason why we should be bitching about them taking so long.

How is this different from a professional effort? Have you ever been forced to preorder something against your will? Has a game company ever taken money from you against your consent? You generally only place a preorder if you were convinced by videos, screenshots or previews that the final result will be good... so judging by this argument this doesn't make this effort any different from a professional one. Every time you place a preorder you give your money willingly. But you give your money willingly for one reason: You believe in the project, but also expect to see results.

If WM and Pier Solar were a hoax, wouldn't they try to make as
much profite as possible without any work whatsoever? If they are a hoax they failed miserably. So they aren't.

What kind of argument is that? There have been quite eloborate hoaxes that failed miserably. You're basically saying a hoax is only a hoax if it is successful. (Check out http://museumofhoaxes.com/ some time, it's quite the fun read)

I'm not saying WM wanted to trick anyone, and I'm still looking forward to seeing this game finished one day, any day... it's just that your arguments don't make much sense.

[N.Saibot]

Not to rain onto your parade here, but:



How is this different from a professional effort? Have you ever been forced to preorder something against your will? Has a game company ever taken money from you against your consent? You generally only place a preorder if you were convinced by videos, screenshots or previews that the final result will be good... so judging by this argument this doesn't make this effort any different from a professional one. Every time you place a preorder you give your money willingly. But you give your money willingly for one reason: You believe in the project, but also expect to see results.



What kind of argument is that? There have been quite eloborate hoaxes that failed miserably. You're basically saying a hoax is only a hoax if it is successful. (Check out http://museumofhoaxes.com/ some time, it's quite the fun read)

I'm not saying WM wanted to trick anyone, and I'm still looking forward to seeing this game finished one day, any day... it's just that your arguments don't make much sense.

What I'm telling is that a hoax would look different. They would charge more money and
not release that much (a demo, screens and videos). So there are two possibilities:
1. they are dumb idiots trying to make a hoax that in case of succes does not bring them
much money (problem: how can dumb idiots make a demo?). 2. They actually are
developing a new game, just having a few drawbacks.

Think again about what you say, how is their effort comparable to a professional one?
They are not professionals. They go to work and it is not programming games what they
do there. So there is a quite big possibility of them not having enoug time to
complete the game. How can a professional studio abandon a project if they get paid and
no commercial reasons stop the development? So WMs project is very different from a
professional effort: even if they are truly working at the game, there is a possbility that
they will never finish it. Everyone should have known this before preordering. This is why I
insist on the phrase _we gave_ our money to them. It is very different from preordering a
game like, say, Half-Life2 or something like that. When you preorder a commercial game
developed by pros you always are assured, that the game will eventually come out. There
is no such security with a fan-project.

[Phantar]

No, but fan projects usually don't charge money...

We're running in circles here. I think what you mean to say is: Don't look at it as a pre-order... look at it as an investment!

[N.Saibot]

More or less, yeah. Don't look at it as a pre-order, look at it as a possibility. If everything works out, you'll get a game, if not, shit happens and there is nothing to complain about in that case.

[Devil N]

But even if you look at it as an investment, then you should still expect a return on investment. Otherwise it's just a donation.

[Knuckle Duster]

It needs a realistic & gracious deadline, there's no big deal involved in setting that expectation.
March or April perhaps?


The things that they botched (And unfortunately what will be remembered, after release.):

They asked for a preorder and on good faith, everybody paid (Full Price.) They then busted all deadlines, ceased annual updates (Regardless of how ridiculously non-informal they were) Dropped a 'sold out' status out of nowhere & hinted at a Finite status on future availability, while shamelessly encouraging those on the fence to buy it immediately despite a severe lack of information.
They've effectively hyped the game, failed to deliver in multiple ways, and forced the hands of those interested in buying it to jump on it immediately.

The whole "It's an indie game, it's an investment, show your support, they're not professionals" argument is irrelevant. They already have our money at a full priced pre-order, how is that not the ultimate support?

They need not get sour over criticism for their continued incompetence & ducking the concerns of buyers, or introduce excuses 'for' it as an assurance of quality.



A moving deadline is more reasonable than a non-existent one when money has already been exchanged.


I think the most obvious point to be made from this whole thread recently is that Zebbe has terrible PR skills.
Brandon Cobb! Fly to Sweden and teach him your silver-tongued sorcerer's ways!