Pier Solar: Official Thread

[websurfer]

Judging by the steps still needed to be completed as listed by Zeebee, I'd say this game still has nearly a year before release.

Ughh... Christmas 2010 release... I really hope not

I hate to give the team a bum rap, I really do. I'm sure the game is decent and has good intentions. But this should be a huge example of how NOT to do things, just like studying Judge Ito (of the OJ Simpson trial) is a lesson on how NOT to run a courtroom. There should be a Sega-16 feature titled "Where Pier Solar Went Wrong".

I was a Working Designs fan so I'm used to waiting years for games.

But yes they started taking preorders 1 year to 1.5 years too soon. Preorders and the demo gave people an expectation that the game was reasonably close to release.

But I'm not canceling my preorder.

[Knuckle Duster]

"Where Pier Solar Went Wrong":


"Aaaay!"

[Joe Redifer]

But I'm not canceling my preorder.

I haven't, either. Am I amazingly gullible or hopelessly optimistic? Still, since I paid I have a right to be perturbed. With so many internet scams out there designed to take "just a little" of your money so that they fly under the radar, it would be easy for the media to see this as one.

[Devil N]

Indeed. What happened? Did I miss something ocurring outside this thread?

I think someone here finally spoke their mind and others followed.

I agree with Knuckle Duster that the guys at Water Melon seem to fail to grasp the basics of project planning. More than half a year ago there were sounds that the project had reached Beta status and was in the final testing phase. Now, the definition of Beta normally means that the product is feature-complete and only needs polishing and bug-fixing. But from what I've heard since then, and confirmed by Zebbe's post earlier, there are still many features incomplete and even new ones being added as we speak.

At that point, I imagine the WM team regularly making great progress with their polishing work and finally getting in sight of the finishing line, when all of a sudden somebody goes "hey, wouldn't if be cool if we added this or that?". Then everybody goes "yeah, let's do that!", the project focus shifts again, new game-breaking bugs are introduced, and the whole process has to start all over again. If you don't have any solid deadlines and a clearly defined feature-freeze moment and if you don't strictly stick with those, then you will forever remain stuck in an alpha-beta-looping quagmire.

Being the patient optimist I am, I usually prefer to just keep my mouth shut about Pier Solar and keep myself occupied with other things. I don't really mind if the game gets released in a month, a year, or two years, I'll see it when it gets there. But I would like to see the project team finally getting their act together, becoming professional and setting some proper and realistic milestones for themselves.

[Zebbe]

Joe Redifer: Sorry about that. I really thought it would be released this year. But things got in the way, to say the least.

I don't have much more to say atm (the FM conversions are only four left). I'll continue work on the game, and it won't be cancelled whatever any hater might wish or say. To all of you who still have faith in the project; thank you!

[username]

The finished product is nowhere to be seen, so at least 3 of those complaints don't hold water for arguing with integrity.

Whose fault is that? Everything they've shown so far is amateurish and mediocre at best, even by hobbyist standards, and I wonder if they're being deliberately misleading as to how much of the game is actually done at times. I don't doubt that they're trying their hardest to create a quality product but sheer force of will will only get them so far.

As far as the artwork that's being put forth, it looks as good as any other indie game I've come across. Including Black Sigil on the NDS. I'm open to accept it being less than that though, it is the Genesis after all, it won't be as colorful as an SNES-like title.

First off, being made by a small dev team on a low budget doesn't make Black Sigil an "indie" game - it was picked up by an outside publisher and released commercially and that was always the plan. Secondly, the Black Sigil crew didn't solicit pre-orders back in 2005 or whatever. Thirdly, there are dozens of legitimate "indie" games made by one guy in a weekend with more ingenuity and talent than Pier Solar has displayed in god knows how long. Finally, considering that they've explicitly advertised the game as having "SNES-quality" graphics I don't see why you should excuse anything.

Again, if you played the demo, or saw screenshots like this and pre-ordered anyway, or are one of the people who inexplicably chose to pre-order without knowing anything about the game except that it's a new game for a dead console, then mummy and daddy will learn not to trust you with their hard-earned cash in future. Oh well.

[Phantar]

Well, I have preordered it basically when preorders first went up, and i'm sticking to it; I'm still curious how it'll turn out.

Just a little advice; back in my university days I wrote and published a couple of short stories and directed a few theatrical plays. Thing is, of course you always want your project to be as perfect as it can possibly be. However, you'll ALWAYS find something that could still use a little tweak... an idea that would do nicely in there... a little change that might be better...

As long as you keep doing these changes, you'll never get your project finished. The more time you spend on adding some touches, the more you loose your focus on the overall project. In the end, even though your intentions were only for the best, you'll only hurt the overall project, until at some point you get fed up and end up never finishing it after all because you always find some "flaws" and can't seem to make it "perfect". (Trust me, I speak from experience here).

That's why deadlines are so important, not only to fulfill outside expectations, but for your own good as well. It might be disappointing if a few good ideas (be it story, graphics, or sounds) don't get implemented, but it might be even worse if your work doesn't get finished after all. The longer you take, the more everyone on the team is getting fed up with it, even if nobody wants to admit it (also personal experience, you don't believe how prissy amateur actors can get!).

That having said, keep up your work and your spirits! I'm definitely looking forward to seeing this game in action one day.

[QuickSciFi]

Thanks, Devil N for your input.

For what is worth, I remain a hopeful optimistic on the subject as well. I do have faith that this project will be realized one day. I'm very excited that they've chosen one of my favorite genres (RPG) for my favorite console of all time (Genesis/MD).

[genocide-superstar]

Is that what the genre and console are?

[Fonzie]

At that point, I imagine the WM team regularly making great progress with their polishing work and finally getting in sight of the finishing line, when all of a sudden somebody goes "hey, wouldn't if be cool if we added this or that?". Then everybody goes "yeah, let's do that!", the project focus shifts again, new game-breaking bugs are introduced, and the whole process has to start all over again. If you don't have any solid deadlines and a clearly defined feature-freeze moment and if you don't strictly stick with those, then you will forever remain stuck in an alpha-beta-looping quagmire.

I hope you were sarcastic, the game didn't had a single feature added for 2 years. I cannot give more details at the moment. Thanks for your patience.

[Devil N]

I hope you were sarcastic, the game didn't had a single feature added for 2 years. I cannot give more details at the moment. Thanks for your patience.

Well, I'm speculating of course. I don't pretend to know exactly what goes on within the WM team. I wish I did. But it's not like that remark isn't based on anything.

The older news posts have been conveniently removed from the Pier Solar website, so I can't make any exact quotations here, but I remember sometime earlier this year there was a post that you were almost ready to start bug testing. It sounded like you were getting pretty close to official Beta status, and while the May deadline for refunds was a bit optimistic, a Summer 2009 release seemed to be pretty realistic at the time. Then just a few weeks later, there was a news post that you had just added a couple of new and exiting side quests to the game. My initial reaction was "WTF guys, this sort of thing should've been finalized a long time ago." And this pattern continued for the next couple of months, until you wisely decided to axe the weekly updates. Yet even now it sounds like a lot of content is still unfinished and final bug testing is farther away than ever.

By the way Zebbe, it's too easy to call your critics 'haters' and leave it at that. Most people here are genuinely concerned about the progress of the project and if anything, the criticism posted here so far has been very mild. You mustn't forget that once you started taking pre-orders and receiving money, you made a serious commitment to your customers to finishing the project within a reasonable time frame. Once your schedule starts to slip into the indefinite, you shouldn't be surprised that your customers start making demands.

I think Phantar hit the nail on the head just now. Perfection is something you'll never accomplish, you have to say 'enough is enough' at some point. And it's not only for the sake of your customers; you will feel a whole lot better yourself once you can finally honestly say you're finished.

Even if I have sounded overly negative in my last couple of posts, you should know I still have a lot of faith in the quality of the game once it is finished. What I have seen so far looks incredibly promising and everyone deserves a lot of credit for all the effort that has gone into the project. My pre-order remains firmly in place and I eagerly await the final result.

[Knuckle Duster]

Whose fault is that? Everything they've shown so far is amateurish and mediocre at best, even by hobbyist standards, and I wonder if they're being deliberately misleading as to how much of the game is actually done at times. I don't doubt that they're trying their hardest to create a quality product but sheer force of will will only get them so far.

I understand & agree with this. Based on the fractured output from different team members. Regardless of how minimal it is, one says one thing, another contradicts it.

First off, being made by a small dev team on a low budget doesn't make Black Sigil an "indie" game - it was picked up by an outside publisher and released commercially and that was always the plan. Secondly, the Black Sigil crew didn't solicit pre-orders back in 2005 or whatever. Thirdly, there are dozens of legitimate "indie" games made by one guy in a weekend with more ingenuity and talent than Pier Solar has displayed in god knows how long. Finally, considering that they've explicitly advertised the game as having "SNES-quality" graphics I don't see why you should excuse anything.

I can excuse the SNES-quality hype for the fact that I'm not 'Ignorant' to the realistic capabilities of the Genesis & I wasn't going to moan about what is a pretty high mark for Genesis work.
I'm just saying that everything is a WIP, hopefully including the artwork.

Black Sigil was an indie game by 'an indie' Studio Archcraft in Montreal. It was published, the only difference in comparison. The final product is a buggy mess after half a decade of development.

Different goals & expectations for the product != Loosing independent developer status.

Again, if you played the demo, or saw screenshots like this and pre-ordered anyway, or are one of the people who inexplicably chose to pre-order without knowing anything about the game except that it's a new game for a dead console, then mummy and daddy will learn not to trust you with their hard-earned cash in future. Oh well.

Troll harder, Please.

I held off for a long time on this project. The demo was great, but didn't get my buy until I was willing to risk money on it without much torment tied to the loss if it occurs.

[acdc]

damn
i waited for the games stalker for the pc
it took 10 years to complete it but what the hell i played it and loved it
so waiting for this rpg where i already paid for is yust good
one day i m in my house the mailman comes and i find a package with the game pier solar
voila i m happy before that time i played other games did other things
i never think about how far the programming was i will see the game when it s finished
and laying in my mailbox

[Zebbe]

Well, I'm speculating of course. I don't pretend to know exactly what goes on within the WM team. I wish I did. But it's not like that remark isn't based on anything.

The older news posts have been conveniently removed from the Pier Solar website, so I can't make any exact quotations here, but I remember sometime earlier this year there was a post that you were almost ready to start bug testing. It sounded like you were getting pretty close to official Beta status, and while the May deadline for refunds was a bit optimistic, a Summer 2009 release seemed to be pretty realistic at the time. Then just a few weeks later, there was a news post that you had just added a couple of new and exiting side quests to the game. My initial reaction was "WTF guys, this sort of thing should've been finalized a long time ago." And this pattern continued for the next couple of months, until you wisely decided to axe the weekly updates. Yet even now it sounds like a lot of content is still unfinished and final bug testing is farther away than ever.

By the way Zebbe, it's too easy to call your critics 'haters' and leave it at that. Most people here are genuinely concerned about the progress of the project and if anything, the criticism posted here so far has been very mild. You mustn't forget that once you started taking pre-orders and receiving money, you made a serious commitment to your customers to finishing the project within a reasonable time frame. Once your schedule starts to slip into the indefinite, you shouldn't be surprised that your customers start making demands.

I think Phantar hit the nail on the head just now. Perfection is something you'll never accomplish, you have to say 'enough is enough' at some point. And it's not only for the sake of your customers; you will feel a whole lot better yourself once you can finally honestly say you're finished.

Even if I have sounded overly negative in my last couple of posts, you should know I still have a lot of faith in the quality of the game once it is finished. What I have seen so far looks incredibly promising and everyone deserves a lot of credit for all the effort that has gone into the project. My pre-order remains firmly in place and I eagerly await the final result.

If you want to read older news posts, please check: http://tavernrpg.blogspot.com/

You are right that the status mentioned in one of the posts was completely wrong, I tried to make up for it by posting how it is now (from what I know).

I won't mention any names, but I don't mean everyone when I say "haters", just a minority who have nothing but negative things to say. I'm very grateful to people who support the project.

I'd confirm that we aren't adding any new content to the game anymore, so a never ending process of polishing won't happen.

[Knuckle Duster]

NEWS FLASH!

New Deadline Buster Sword side quest details revealed from leaked documents:

Slay the Jumping Shark Super-boss "Fonzilla" with 2 parasite bodyguards named "Pump & Dump" in an Ocean temple only accessible when Sonic & Knuckles is locked-on! WOWZERS!