Non-fun non-facts

[MrMatthews]

yes, and those white "working class" people (and pretty much no one else) voted for an open bigot, either because of said bigotry or in spite of. if we're going to pretend obama's push for healthcare & such was the cause of such deep divide (and not the right losing its mind at a black president), surely electing a woefully incompetent racist who praises nazis as "very fine people" is going to fix that right up, and these oh-so-angry white folks should be catered to over every other growing demographic, because that's clearly doing wonders for us.

I'm pretty sure the world isn't quite as racist as you perceive it to be, but remember: prejudice, bigotry, and racism is for everyone. Not just for white people.

Ironically, Trump actually got a greater percentage of the black vote than either of the candidates who ran against Obama (at least according to the Edison report). And I know it sounds pretty cool to say stuff like "whites were losing their minds at a black president," remember that Obama got elected president twice. So that racist white superpower never bothered to show up when it counted, I guess.

And I've said it before and I'll say it again: we got the candidates we deserved, not the ones we probably needed. I don't think anyone really wanted either one of those candidates as president, as neither of them seemed especially popular even before the mudslinging began. But when you went in to vote, you were either voting for a bullying, loud-mouthed attention whore or an (alleged) murdering super-bitch who sold US secrets to our enemies.

I didn't vote. I'm still not sure who I would have voted for, either. So every legitimate vote that Trump got, was that person actually voting for Trump, or against Clinton? Same question for Clinton.

Regarding all the left vs. right wing bullshit in my country: I used to be a lot more vocal and argumentative about my political beliefs, but eventually I just got fucking sick and tired of it, and especially with the Fresh Kills landfill-amount of negativity coming from firebrands standing at either extreme. Anymore, I honestly can't understand how anyone could chum that level of negative energy on a day-to-day basis and not go violently insane.

I guess in some circles I'd be considered 'centrist' as I refuse to blindly follow either side anymore. This is not to say I've isolated myself from politics, but rather I now more intensely scrutinize whatever dogma someone is trying to sell me, and try to come to my own conclusions about things, before I go around mindlessly parroting to others.

Anyway that's just me.

I agree with this and I honestly think most of the country is like this. It's the vocal minority of the far-lefts & far-rights that are making the world worse than it needs to be.

[Jake Armitage]

I know! So far nobody has been called a white supremacist or a commie libtard. This is very encouraging!

Can I be an iconoclast though?

[Raijin Z]

In my experience, it is the policy of the far left to utilize the sacred diversity icon to deflect any and all valid criticism of something, and when they cannot defeat something via rational discussion and debate, to label the opponent a bigot.
▬ Don't like New Progressive Video Experience (we all agreed in 2014 that gamers are dead, remember)? Well you must be a misogynist, homophobic anti-semite, because the protagonist is a woman, and this has never happened in a video game before now.
▬ Don't like mandatory health insurance coverage, that takes a two-digit percentage of your gross income, and makes you pay deductibles that are 90% of the ballooned treatment costs, if covered at all? You're a racist.
▬ Don't like communism (in spite of its many, many monstrous failures, but those weren't real communism) being espoused by the wealthy? Well you're a fat capitalist bigot who hates poor people!
▬ Don't like "sensible gun laws" being passed in the middle of the night with no vote? You hate children and probably want to shoot everyone you don't like! *rolls eyes* Stupid wypipo!
▬ Don't like "undocumented migrants" crossing into the country by the millions? Well who else would be willing to pick oranges for $15 an hour, with no income taxes or medicare costs taken out? Go back to your part time job at Wal*Mart, bigot!
▬ Don't like masked "freedom fighters" liberating random people of their blood and general well-being? Well you're a Nazi, so why should we care what vile filth you spew? Stop smashing small businesses? Feh, capitalist.

The far left is quite enamored with labels. One cannot be a person with a deep well of experiences and skills to draw from. No, you must be a token. What color is your skin? What do you identify as? Where do you fit in the oppression totem pole? I had once voiced my concern with this to a rather large and active online community, pining for the days when a person was just a person with their unique set of experiences and thoughts, instead of just being [name][sexual preference][skin color]. It did not go over well, and it seemed to me that many people in that community did not have anything beneath their labels.

People wonder why Donald Trump was so popular, and cannot see the forest for the labels on their eyes. Meanwhile, people joke about the open secret of being put on a kill list if you run afoul of the Clintons. "10 Haunting Photos Taken Seconds Before Disaster: [Anthony Bourdain]: 'I have information that will lead to the arrest of Hillary Clinton.'" Right. Donald Trump is the monster because he will say negative things about you on Twitter if you insult him or cross him. Interesting how many people voted for Obama in 2008, voted for Trump in 2016. Like they regretted what they had done, and were doing anything they could to make America great again? In any case, one need only look to places like New York City, Los Angeles, Chicago, and Detroit to see the end of the road not taken.

[gamevet]

I just wish that the terms far left and far right would die in a fire. It's so stupid to me.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

yes, and those white "working class" people (and pretty much no one else) voted for an open bigot, either because of said bigotry or in spite of. if we're going to pretend obama's push for healthcare & such was the cause of such deep divide (and not the right losing its mind at a black president), surely electing a woefully incompetent racist who praises nazis as "very fine people" is going to fix that right up, and these oh-so-angry white folks should be catered to over every other growing demographic, because that's clearly doing wonders for us.

What has Trump actually said or done that is truly racist or bigoted? Can you actually provide a direct quote?

Part of why I started following him and became a supporter early on was because we had news stations like CNN saying "Trump said this outrageous racist thing today!", and I naturally went "Oh I have to see this." only to find that when I went and checked the source material in it's full context, those outrageous racist things were nowhere to be found. This is part of why many of the tried and true smear campaigns didn't work on Trump. All his speeches, rallies, etc. were up on youtube for all to see. He blurted out whatever was on his mind on twitter for all to see. So it was hard for a smear campaign to work when anyone could go and hear it directly from the horses mouth and see that in it's full context, what we were being told by the news media wasn't actually true.

A prime example of this is when people say "He's racist because he called all Mexicans rapists!" This was actually the quote that made me go and check the speech to see for myself. And I found to my surprise he didn't say that. What he said was that many of the illegal immigrants coming into the country have criminal records and go on to commit crimes in our country. This came from statistics he was referencing. Rape just happened to be one of many crimes he mentioned from those statistics. So what he said wasn't actually racist. If anything it was racist of the media and others to construe that by saying Illegal Immigrants he must mean all Mexicans.

As for the right being upset at Obama being black, that's pretty bold to say. My issues with Obama have nothing to do with his skin color, but instead his boneheaded policies. If Republicans had a problem with black people there would be no black Republicans making their way into any forms of office, and we know that's not the case. Heck Trump has appointed people like Ben Carson into his Cabinet for crying out loud.

My main reasons for voting for Trump were the following reasons:

1) He made it clear he wanted to do something to get rid of or revamp the Affordable Care Act. Having family members who own small businesses end up in financial problems as well as see the major corporation I work for have to severely gimp our health benefits due to this law made it more than obvious it was a bad idea. There's so much stupid in it that it completely nullifies any good it did.

2) He wanted to give tax breaks. I am not rich by any means of the word, but my taxes were getting quite ridiculous. The proposed tax breaks as well as what we eventually got gave a nice boost to not only my paycheck but also my parents and many family members. It also gave quite a bit of relief to family members and friends I have who run their own businesses.

3) He wanted to actually do something about illegal immigration. Regardless of your stance, you have to admit it's been a problem in our country for a very long time. Hell I remember Bill Clinton back in the 90's discussing the issue and in some cases standing before congress asking for many of the same things Trump is asking for. Trump actually wanting to do something rather than just talk about it was actually nice to hear, because for 2+ decades we've been talking about it but not doing anything about it.

4) He was very clear on his stance with the 2nd Amendment and gun laws. As someone who grew up in a family with guns and was taught that they were tools, not toys, I find it insulting that people today want to blame the tool used in a mass murder rather than the person using the tool.

When it came to social issues, he's actually pretty moderate as far as conservatives go. With Gay Marriage he was pretty clear that while he didn't like how it was done, it's still the law and he wasn't going to do anything about it. With Abortion though he said he's against it, that's still a big uphill battle even with a stacked Supreme Court. It would be political suicide to push for it at this point and I think he and the rest of the GOP know that. The rest of the typical social talking points we have these days I feel fall more into the category of personal life choices, and not systemic oppression that needs laws to rectify it. Which again Trump seemed to fit this mind set as well.

I didn't vote for him due to racism or being white. I voted for him because his policies and views aligned the most with my own.

i'd argue actually supporting social programs, living wages & the like is clearly the way to go - especially with wealth distribution here continuing to spike & shit on nearly all of us, nevermind what automation is going to do over the next decade

It's kind of hard to push for a living wage when the economic policies in the country make it almost impossible to set up a business in it. The reason we had so much outsourcing happening is because it was cheaper and easier to form a business and manufacture things in other countries. Now that we've had some reforms go through under Trump we are seeing businesses come back and giving people the opportunity for better paying jobs.

As for social programs, I think we can have those but they need to be setup in a way to prevent the rampant abuse we've been seeing now. Plus there is a point where they can start to do more harm than good. Case in point, see what's happening to places like San Francisco, Seattle, etc.

but on a national level many of us are still too dumb to even embrace universal health care like the rest of the developed world has.

Yeah it's kind of easier for some of those other countries to provide universal health care when we're footing a major part of the bill for their defense.

we can also talk about how trump literally lost by millions (with the half of our country able & inclined to vote) but i think the overestimation of his base will be a lot more evident by november.

Trump lost by Millions in the popular vote because of California. If you remove California, Trump won the popular vote. Which that is a prime example of why we don't have a direct democratic election but instead have the Electoral College. The Electoral College is there to prevent these kind of things from happening. One state should not be able to essentially rule the entire country.

As for the midterms in November, it will be interesting to see what happens. Personally I think the Democrats might be a bit too overconfident, as they haven't really changed any of their talking points from 2016 and Trumps policies have actually been doing a lot of good for many people. If those talking points didn't work in 2016 and many people are seeing the benefits of Trumps talking points, it's a bit much to expect some massive blue wave to happen.

also, the "far right" embrace of trump's authoritarianism & the likewise dumbass parties gaining some favor in the EU are fascists. call a spade a spade.

Do you actually know what Fascism is?

[Crystalpepsifan]

^Birtherism is racism bud.

[Jake Armitage]

^Birtherism is racism bud.

I recently had to get a record of my mother's death certificate for one of my brothers - I happened to be the only one who could find a birth certificate - which was needed to get the death certificate. They would not accept a photocopy, a scan from the original, nor a PDF document. Had to be an original which had to be verified by state personnel.

Do you think this was to prove where I was born? So therefore was the state being racist here?

Oddly enough, I also would have been able to show a matricula card - but I was of the wrong nationality for that - but also oddly enough you supposedly need a birth certificate to get that also. Why couldn't the birth certificate used to get the matricula card have just been required to get a death certificate?

Maybe racism (or perhaps cultural bias) was also in play here.

[Crystalpepsifan]

I recently had to get a record of my mother's death certificate for one of my brothers - I happened to be the only one who could find a birth certificate - which was needed to get the death certificate. They would not accept a photocopy, a scan from the original, nor a PDF document. Had to be an original which had to be verified by state personnel.

Do you think this was to prove where I was born? So therefore was the state being racist here?

Oddly enough, I also would have been able to show a matricula card - but I was of the wrong nationality for that - but also oddly enough you supposedly need a birth certificate to get that also. Why couldn't the birth certificate used to get the matricula card have just been required to get a death certificate?

Maybe racism (or perhaps cultural bias) was also in play here.

No need to be coy, Jack. Don't pretend you're not smart enough to understand what I'm talking about.

[Jake Armitage]

No need to be coy, Jack. Don't pretend you're not smart enough to understand what I'm talking about.

Not being coy - I find it somewhat disturbing that to get a relatively simple form I had to produce far more documentation than someone running for President (anyone of any race - not just Obama)* (or Vice President since the qualifications are the same).

*There was an attempt to discredit McCain based on where he was born. That was a form of birtherism also was it not - or does it not count because McCain was white?

IMHO "birtherism" is a manufactured pejorative with the racism built in - so to a certain extent your statement was redundant. But it is quite possible to believe (as I do) that Obama was born in Hawaii but that there are more than a few discrepancies in his life story as presented.

[Yharnamresident]

I got a lot of pages to look through.

But the problem with Trump is hes getting sidetracked and isn't doing what he promised. Like I know the wall is starting to be built in San Diego, but hes not doing a mass deportation of illegal immigrants, and I don't think legal immigration has been reduced at all. Theres still garbage like the Visa Lottery, and chain migration. But perhaps he needs another year or two.

Also Trekkies props to you for not giving a shit about guilt association. I know its not cool to be a Trump fan, but the people who enforce this narrative are the ones who want bottomless 3rd world immigration, transgenders in the military, and LGBT parades to be the main purpose of city streets.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

^Birtherism is racism bud.

Why?

What about that entire thing had anything to do about race? The issue was where he was born, not the color of his skin. The same shit got flung at McCain, and Trump brought the same argument up against Cruz in the primaries. If it was about race he wouldn't have done that now would he?

But the problem with Trump is hes getting sidetracked and isn't doing what he promised. Like I know the wall is starting to be built in San Diego, but hes not doing a mass deportation of illegal immigrants, and I don't think legal immigration has been reduced at all. Theres still garbage like the Visa Lottery, and chain migration. But perhaps he needs another year or two.

I'd say he's doing the best he can with the hand he was dealt. We have a congress that's really not working together which makes it very difficult to fix some of these things. Yes the President has some power to do things, but in the end if we want laws changed we have to get the right people in congress. One area where Trump has done very well in this regard is to point out who the specific roadblocks are to make it easier to vote them out. In many of these cases he's offered to compromise and make a deal with some of these people and they've turned him away not because they actually care about the problem or situation, but because they instead care more about looking good for the whole "Resist Trump!" campaign.

[Crystalpepsifan]

Why?

What about that entire thing had anything to do about race? The issue was where he was born, not the color of his skin. The same shit got flung at McCain, and Trump brought the same argument up against Cruz in the primaries. If it was about race he wouldn't have done that now would he?

Give me a break dude, you're smarter than that.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

Give me a break dude, you're smarter than that.

So you can't defend your argument then?

[Crystalpepsifan]

So you can't defend your argument then?

My supposition is that you know it's racism but aren't honest enough to admit it.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

My supposition is that you know it's racism but aren't honest enough to admit it.

No, I honestly want to know what was racist about it? If it was truly an argument out of racism, then why did that same argument get thrown at white candidates as well? Sometimes by the same people?

So either defend your argument or I'll just assume you're labeling it as racism just because the argument happened to get thrown at Obama.