Non-fun non-facts

[Ecco]

Please - I can read as well as most people here - maybe even better.

""Russia, if you're listening, I hope you're able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing," Trump said on July 27, 2016, the same day the indictment says hackers targeted a domain used by Clinton's personal office."

That is a clear reference to the 30,000 "missing" emails from Clinton's tenure as secretary of state. Those would not have been on any server Clinton was using in 2016. So any correlation is purely coincidental to the point of not even being casual (let alone causal).

Trump said find - not obtain - the emails.

Consider this:

Mr. Armitage (to Mrs. Armitage) - can you find your car keys?

or

Mr. Armitage (to Mrs. Armitage) - can you go get another set of car keys made?

Hopefully the nuances are clear.

I'm sorry but I think my meaning is not getting across. My main point is that the world press is making the connection between him saying it, and it actually happening within 3 or 4 hours.

So basically the world press believes it's directly related.

[Ecco]

Now who is not keeping up with the news (old in this case):

https://www.cnn.com/2017/12/29/polit...ase/index.html

Unknown at this point how many were found - the FBI is dragging their heels on this one (no surprise) - New York City Police 1 impounded the laptop in the course of a separate investigation I am guessing that NYPD did make more than copy - which should (hopefully) keep the FBI somewhat honest down the road.

OK I was just misunderstanding what u were saying. I thought u were saying that Hillary's personal emails were found.

I remember the event that you linked.

[Ecco]

You are falling into a trap of faulty thinking fostered by the arbitrary imposition of a flawed two party system (which is not mandated anywhere in the constitution):

A) Person A (let's say a republican) is no damn good - kicks his dog (or whatever allegations someone can manifest against them).
So person B (let's say a democrat) is therefore good.

B) Person B (let's say a democrat) is no damn good - kicks his dog (or whatever allegations someone can manifest against them).
So person A (let's say a republican) is therefore good.

When in reality both A and B are quite likely no damn good - maybe one kicks his dog and one kicks his cat - the end result is just the same. One being bad (which in the end is quite subjective) doesn't mandate that the other is good.

Being opposites doesn't mean one is perforce good. (Hitler and Stalin were so far opposite on the political scale that they met in a loop behind the outhouse. We just tend to view Stalin a bit better since he was on "our side" (at least until VE day) - we still toadied up to him for a bit afterwards because we thought (mistakenly as it turned out) that we needed his help in the ETO.

History generally doesn't really weigh in on how effective a president was until long after they are out of office (and usually dead to boot).

Most people in this country and the world* thought differently about both of them (I disliked them both - but I have never been one to jump witlessly on bandwagons).

*In the case of the Islamic world, a lot of the viewpoint is going to be heavily weighted by the perception of how the two treated Israel.

Ok good points.

So aside from their political party, don't you find both of them very different and opposite just in terms of character?

[Jake Armitage]

I'm sorry but I think my meaning is not getting across. My main point is that the world press is making the connection between him saying it, and it actually happening within 3 or 4 hours.

So basically the world press believes it's directly related.

Hopefully astute people will recognize the world press is basically just parroting each other from one or two sources (quite likely somewhat dubious ones - an old trick that Reader's Digest was infamous for using). As I described the two couldn't have been related since the emails* in question couldn't have been on Clinton's server. Fake news if there ever was any - similar in effect to the dirty tricks NBC used in editing the phone interactions that Zimmerman had with the police in the Martin shooting.

*IIRC correctly that happened during one of the debates - and it was clearly a joke (albeit one with a sharp barb) meant to harpoon Hilary.

Also just because the world press (whoever that is) reports it doesn't mean they believe it (or more accurately in this case the spin they are putting on it).**

** “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.” - Josef Goebbels (who certainly knew what he was talking about when it came to lying).

[Jake Armitage]

Ok good points.

So aside from their political party, don't you find both of them very different and opposite just in terms of character?

All we see are the fronts they want to try to present - I suspect they are both far darker in character than what we see - from what I have seen though I wouldn't want either one for a neighbor. (Neither of them seemed to be very honest (or bright for that matter) - two of some of the qualities I like to see in people. )

[MrMatthews]

You cannot 'make' somebody gay, regardless of how much same sex relationship material or gay porn you bombard them with.

This seems totally legit.

http://www.towleroad.com/2018/04/lyrica-gay/

A 23-year-old UK man claims that he became gay after his doctor prescribed him the painkiller Pregbalin, known by its Pfizer brand name as Lyrica.

The drug is used to treat anxiety, epilepsy, nerve and muscle pain, and fibromyalgia.

Purdy told the UK Mirror that he was prescribed the drug after breaking his foot and it caused him to lose his attraction to his girlfriend and develop sexual feelings for men, and now he’s “very happy.”

Said Purdy: “If anyone gets prescribed this in the future, I think they should know what this medication can do. It took me a while to realise what it was. I stopped taking it for a few weeks and that desire for men just left. But I’m on it now; I’m very happy. I want to keep on taking it because it makes me feel happy about my sexuality. It’s made me feel very open. It’s liberating…It did come as a shock to people. I posted it on Facebook . I didn’t tell them the reason why but I just said to them, ‘I’m open; I’m gay.’ Currently I’m talking to this lad on Plenty of Fish and in a couple of weeks I’m going up to see him. He’s in London. It’s really what I’m craving right now. I want to be with him right now.”

He said his girlfriend totally understands.

[Ecco]

Hopefully astute people will recognize the world press is basically just parroting each other from one or two sources (quite likely somewhat dubious ones - an old trick that Reader's Digest was infamous for using). As I described the two couldn't have been related since the emails* in question couldn't have been on Clinton's server. Fake news if there ever was any - similar in effect to the dirty tricks NBC used in editing the phone interactions that Zimmerman had with the police in the Martin shooting.

*IIRC correctly that happened during one of the debates - and it was clearly a joke (albeit one with a sharp barb) meant to harpoon Hilary.

Also just because the world press (whoever that is) reports it doesn't mean they believe it (or more accurately in this case the spin they are putting on it).**

** “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.” - Josef Goebbels (who certainly knew what he was talking about when it came to lying).

With all respect, this conversation just isn't working. You seem like you're arguing against me telling you that the whole world press has made a certain conclusion. Whether it's exactly the real truth, or not, it is still the global consensus right now.

How can you dismiss the whole world's conclusion, off-hand, without even looking it up quickly to simply verify it for yourself...

[IrishNinja]

The thing is people like Trump don't appear out of thin air. They are the result of a social backlash which has come from a section of society, predominantly from white working class sections of society, who feel utterly ignored and disenfranchised by the political status quo, which is predominantly left leaning and massively liberal. Rightly or wrongly large sections of the US feel utterly excluded and insulted by left leaning media on a constant basis. Speaking purely as somebody looking into your country from the outside, I'm not surprised that they're pissed off and neither was I surprised when Trump won because we're seeing the same thing happening here in Europe. We have leaders of far-right parties, like Marine Le Pen, in France for example, that are enjoying a huge surge in popularity for the exact same reasons that people voted for Trump. Then of course you have Brexit in my own country which was the direct result of that which I've been talking about. Western society ignores the reasons behind such political seismic shifts to it's peril. You can ignore, insult and belittle the demographic I spoke of all you want but they're not going anywhere, and are getting angrier day by day.

yes, and those white "working class" people (and pretty much no one else) voted for an open bigot, either because of said bigotry or in spite of. if we're going to pretend obama's push for healthcare & such was the cause of such deep divide (and not the right losing its mind at a black president), surely electing a woefully incompetent racist who praises nazis as "very fine people" is going to fix that right up, and these oh-so-angry white folks should be catered to over every other growing demographic, because that's clearly doing wonders for us.

i'd argue actually supporting social programs, living wages & the like is clearly the way to go - especially with wealth distribution here continuing to spike & shit on nearly all of us, nevermind what automation is going to do over the next decade - but on a national level many of us are still too dumb to even embrace universal health care like the rest of the developed world has. we can also talk about how trump literally lost by millions (with the half of our country able & inclined to vote) but i think the overestimation of his base will be a lot more evident by november.

also, the "far right" embrace of trump's authoritarianism & the likewise dumbass parties gaining some favor in the EU are fascists. call a spade a spade.

[Mega Drive Bowlsey]

Sorry guys. I'm just a little cranky today. I couldn't sleep last night. My son and his boyfriend were boning all night in the room next to mine and their headboard was banging against the wall.

LOL! Y'know, I can never tell when you're being serious. With this latest revelation into your home life I think you are. Tell your son that you need to sleep so he should fuck his boyfriend quietly. I think you should take Ecco's advice and move his bed. Then again if they're both moaners then you'll hear them fuck all over the house.

[Jake Armitage]

With all respect, this conversation just isn't working. You seem like you're arguing against me telling you that the whole world press has made a certain conclusion. Whether it's exactly the real truth, or not, it is still the global consensus right now.

How can you dismiss the whole world's conclusion, off-hand, without even looking it up quickly to simply verify it for yourself...

Again you seem to assume that I can't/won't read because I don't agree that the "whole world press" (which can only exist if one discounts any members therein that don't agree with whatever is being postulated) is correct - a false narrative is still a false narrative no matter how many people sign off on it. Maybe the Russians did try to hack into Clinton's server the day after* Trump's pointed barb - but it couldn't have been to look for the 30,000 missing emails** (which is what everyone assumed they already had possession off) since those would not have been on Clinton's then current server.

*I am guessing that trying to break into such things is actually fairly routine for the world's various intelligence agencies - including (*gasps dramatically*) the US's.

**Which is what "the whole world's press" is trying to insinuate is why the Russians were doing if they they were indeed somehow acting on Trump's behest.

[Ecco]

Again you seem to assume that I can't/won't read because I don't agree that the "whole world press" (which can only exist if one discounts any members therein that don't agree with whatever is being postulated) is correct - a false narrative is still a false narrative no matter how many people sign off on it. Maybe the Russians did try to hack into Clinton's server the day after* Trump's pointed barb - but it couldn't have been to look for the 30,000 missing emails** (which is what everyone assumed they already had possession off) since those would not have been on Clinton's then current server.

*I am guessing that trying to break into such things is actually fairly routine for the world's various intelligence agencies - including (*gasps dramatically*) the US's.

**Which is what "the whole world's press" is trying to insinuate is why the Russians were doing if they they were indeed somehow acting on Trump's behest.

Well isn't even worth glancing at one or two articles or videos, explaining what the majority of the world press seems to conclude? Rather than dismissing it off-hand and not even looking at it? I did see at least one good video that explains it so maybe I'll post it later, when I come across it again.

[BonusKun]

Btw I want to say I'm proud of how mature you guys are being in this thread. Usually politics bring out some of the most ugly in people so color me surprised that you all are having a decent conversation like adults. Keep it up.

[Mega Drive Bowlsey]

Btw I want to say I'm proud of how mature you guys are being in this thread. Usually politics bring out some of the most ugly in people so color me surprised that you all are having a decent conversation like adults. Keep it up.

I know! So far nobody has been called a white supremacist or a commie libtard. This is very encouraging!

[Jake Armitage]

How many articles do I need to read to see the light? How many have I already read (since it seems I have not read any)?

I will go at it one more time.

When did Hillary zap the 30,000 plus emails? (Apparently sometime in the fall of 2014.)

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact...r-work-emails/

Wikileaks released a searchable database of on many of Hillary's emails while serving as Secretary of State on March 15, 2016.

Trump referenced the 30,000+ missing emails on July 27 2016.

It seems pretty clear that the emails had been hacked long before July 27 - indeed before the fall of 2014 when the original server was supposedly scrubbed. So the hackers following Trump non-existent request that they hack Hillary's server on July 27 makes no sense since they had already (apparently) been hacked, the emails had already been deleted and they would not have been on the then current server. It is possible that someone did indeed try to hack that server on July 27* - but it is still just an indictment and if they did it perforce it had to be a coincidence since the 30,000 plus emails apparently no longer existed (unless they are all on Wiener's laptop - but no one has suggested (to my knowledge) that on July 27 the Russians tried to hack that).

*It seems that it is painfully obvious that if this really occurred it was a coincidence. They do happen.

[Eep386]

Regarding all the left vs. right wing bullshit in my country: I used to be a lot more vocal and argumentative about my political beliefs, but eventually I just got fucking sick and tired of it, and especially with the Fresh Kills landfill-amount of negativity coming from firebrands standing at either extreme. Anymore, I honestly can't understand how anyone could chum that level of negative energy on a day-to-day basis and not go violently insane.

I guess in some circles I'd be considered 'centrist' as I refuse to blindly follow either side anymore. This is not to say I've isolated myself from politics, but rather I now more intensely scrutinize whatever dogma someone is trying to sell me, and try to come to my own conclusions about things, before I go around mindlessly parroting to others.

Anyway that's just me.