Knuckles Chaotix

[o.pwuaioc]

Am I the only person that really likes this game? The only thing I don't like is the lack of enemies/lack of a real challenge or lives system in the game. Otherwise I think it is one of the best Sonic games.

It lacked enemies, a challenge, good control, and fun gameplay mechanics. It was a snoozefest for me.

[Retropolis Zone]

Am I the only person that really likes this game? The only thing I don't like is the lack of enemies/lack of a real challenge or lives system in the game. Otherwise I think it is one of the best Sonic games.

No, you are not alone in this. I should also note that liking a game is different from thinking it's good. Enjoying something is not always related to the quality of it. That said, the problems Barone and I listed are obvious. It's definitely a rushed and half-assed game and that drips right off. It could have been much much more and for that I do not think Knuckles' Chaotix deserves a 9/10 or there abouts.

[Barone]

I couldn't agree more, RZ.

Not enough is said about the sad and uninspired presentation. The very first Sonic game had outstanding presentation for its time; Chaotix is just rubbish.

Enemy placement, another point you brought which is usually overlooked. It may seem like a small detail at first but you can split most of the platformers of the 16-bit era into good and mediocre columns just looking at this one aspect.
Games like Zool (the second one is better), James Pond (especially the first and third game), Socket and Tinhead have lackluster enemy placement; those are mediocre platformers and I dare to say that some of them might have better enemy placement than Chaotix.

[Guntz]

Having read that one Sonic CD thread (why it's so weird) and played Knuckles Chaotix (years after Sonic CD), I have just one question. What is it we love about Sonic? Just bear with me on this.

When comparing against all the great platformers, the core Sonic games are actually flawed in one way or another. Their big claim to fame is speed and over-the-top physics. This is okay at first, but there is one problem with this. It's really hard to predict and react to oncoming obstacles, unless you've memorized the game before. This problem is especially obvious in Sonic clones like Bubsy. Beyond this, there really isn't much to Sonic. Just attack enemies, go around loops and reach the goal, chaos emeralds are optional. Sonic 1 may not even have multiple paths in its acts (I don't remember precisely), while Sonic & Knuckles has a lot of sections where barely any input is required to proceed (loops, transporters etc). This may be construed as arcade style, but I find it clashes with the aforementioned speed, because of the underlying platforming elements which don't normally work well with speed. Other slower platformers innovated by added more levels, more content, things to collect, new abilities etc. Sonic barely did any of that across the core series.

Now, if we all come to the same conclusion that Sonic isn't necessarily that great, all things considered, why is it Sonic CD and Knuckles Chaotix are so offensive? Sure, they stray pretty far from the core Sonic series, but they at least try to innovate. Where the core ended up becoming stale on top of meager, Sonic CD and KC were radically different takes. They're Sonic games underneath, but they play very differently. I don't really see anything wrong with that. In fact, I'd say KC is just as messy and convoluted as Sonic CD, yet a lot of people give Sonic CD a free pass despite all that. Yes, KC isn't necessarily for everyone, that doesn't mean it's bad. In all honesty, I don't think Sonic is meant for everyone to begin with. For some, Sonic is too light on content and too fast paced for its own good. In that sense, Sonic CD and Knuckles Chaotix do actually fit into the series well.

Don't get me wrong, I have always been a fan of the core Sonic platformers, I am just presenting an honest analysis here.

[Barone]

When comparing against all the great platformers, the core Sonic games are actually flawed in one way or another.

Please, cite some games which you consider great platformers.

Their big claim to fame is speed and over-the-top physics.

This a very shallow analysis IMO and one of the reasons why so many failed to imitate it properly.

The original Sonic The Hedgehog is a very pleasant experience all around:

• The stages have beautiful landscapes, properly themed with the tiles being designed specifically for each one of them.
• The use of color is great, there are no abrupt shading transitions nor overly saturated tiles (except for the Marble Zone's lava which is kinda rubbish).
• Sonic is drawn on smooth color tones, with very fluid and rich animation. Each enemy is well drawn, their contours are clearly recognizable.
• Enemy placement greatly rewards memorization, not only allowing you to avoid any hits but also delivering a sensation of freedom and joy of speed rarely seem before.
• The boss battles test your skills in terms of maneuvering Sonic under non-ideal conditions; but such skills were built progressively throughout each zone's obstacles and level-specific hazards.
• The sound effects are easy to recognize, not scratchy, not too loud (you can easily appreciate the music compositions); well designed.
• The music tracks fit the theme of each zone and each moment of the game. Upbeat on high speed, slow-paced underwater; tense on boss battles and lack of oxygen, etc.
• The presentation of the game isn't lengthy nor super detailed but it's classy. The pre-title screen fades in and out unlike most of the Mega Drive games of the time; the title screen is iconic and looks really attractive. The items have a very distinctive manner to be collected and presented; their effect is easily recognizable. The splash screen used to announce each stage was really cool for the time. The bonus points are calculated in a very cool and less orthodox screen than most of the games at the time.
• The controls are very simple and intuitive; no memorization is require. But practice is rewarded since the accuracy of your jumps and your control over speed will depend on how well you calculate the effect of the duration of your input.
• The game runs almost flawlessly, to the point that you can easily forget about any kind of hardware limitation and feel completely immersed into Sonic's world.
• The stages aren't overly long nor repetitive. Exploration is optional but give you extra lives, invincibility or an uncommon amount of rings. Speed is optional but give you time bonus. Collecting is optional but gives you more items, more ring bonus and can trigger a special stage. Several segments can be covered using different path or different moves (running, spinning or jumping), in a way that each player will be able to print his own style into his gameplay.
• Your objective in the game is pretty clear since the beginning and it's also easy to discover and understand what you have to do in order to achieve the best ending possible for your story (which is also rewarded).

Those are some of the elements which made the original game so successful.

If you get to make a proper analysis of Sonic CD or Knuckles Chaotix you'll understand why a lot of people don't enjoy them nearly as much the original game or its two proper sequels. And, to be very honest, to group Chaotix with Sonic CD is an insult to the CD game.

[o.pwuaioc]

Despite that, Sonic 1 - Knuckles are leaps and bounds beyond Sonic CD, in my opinion, which is then itself better than Knuckles Chaotix, but at that point, neither are desirable.

[Barone]

Agreed.

[Bones Justice]

I liked this game. I'm not so much into mascot-platformers, prefer games like X-Men. But this was fun to play with two players. I like that it forces you to truly cooperate to do well, unlike a lot of co-op games. I wouldn't rate it so high, though, maybe a 7.

[zetastrike]

Idk, I like the game. I wanted to play it for many years, but I never had a 32X and when I finally got one and the game, it would crash every time I tried it. So I eventually played it on fusion. It might be one of those cases like meeting one of your heroes where you make yourself like it even though it's not the greatest.

I like that the levels are huge and fun to explore, but nothing really differentiates them. I like the art styles and how the time of day changes the looks of the levels. The music is nice. I don't have too much of a problem with the controls. It can be irritating, but it's nothing a little practice can't fix.

Rather than rushing it out for the 32X, it would have been better off if they took the concept, polished it up, and made it a Saturn launch title.

Sonic CD, though, is my favorite of the series. I find myself wanting to go back to that and Chaotix more often than the MD games. Maybe because I've played those ones to death so many times.

[midnightrider]

I'm with o.pwuaioc on this one. Admittedly I'm more used to challenge after digging more into the Genesis' library these last couple years, but even as someone that was never looking for one, even I felt like this was too bare to provide enough of a challenge to be entertaining. You've got to have something trying to impede your progress.

[Retropolis Zone]

Some people seem to think Knuckles' Chaotix is disliked because it doesn't play or feel like a Sonic game. It's not necessarily about that. Knuckles' Chaotix, as a Sonic game or a game that stands on its own, is just bad. It tried to innovate and there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, it's commendable when developers push boundaries. However, when a gimmick hampers the game more than it does to benefit it for the majority of people, something is wrong. Yes the rubber band stuff can work, but you'd have to master it to get it to work the way you want it to, and by that time you must have completed the game more than once. What really ruins Chaotix, in my opinion, is that design compromises were made just to make the game compatible with an unpolished, frustrating mechanic. The level design is a clusterfuck of recycled ''set-pieces'' and lay-outs with very few threats to get in your way, probably because the developers knew Knuckles' Chaotix would be impossible to play if you had to pull off anything with precision - exactly because the gimmick is so unpredictable and uncontrollable. Then, stages feel like mazes because everything looks the same and has been designed with little rhyme or reason, significantly padding out the game. Five acts, as I said before, make this a fatal problem. Just play the Techno Tower levels and observe how every stage starts with the same elevator on the right side of the screen, and then goes into ''generic run around fast with nothing in your way''-vertical climbing sections. Why would you want to play the same thing five times in one playthrough? Why not have more Zones with fewer Acts? That's a sign of lack of creativity or simply a rushed and half-assed job, when the previous Sonic games set the standards with 2 acts per zone or 3 at most. On top of all that, the presentation is sloppy at best with absolutely laughable ''endings'' (credits just roll out of nowhere, that's some NES level shit right there), some poor sound design in places (or lack there of) and slowdown issues in a game that really doesn't push the 32X.

And I am not a hater; I just don't see any redeeming qualities in Knuckles' Chaotix when it comes to gameplay. Again, there is nothing wrong with liking Knuckles' Chaotix, but there is no way to deny its glaring faults. I'll probably get slaughtered for this, but I would say Sonic 2006 is a better game than this. As bad of a game as that is... it has some good level design for the action stages, nice-looking enviroments (most of the time) with decent early 7th-gen graphics, an exquisite soundtrack all across the board (Knuckles' Chaotix has a good soundtrack too, but a lot of the tracks are filler/generic) and an actual sense of control over your characters, even though the physics and all are incredibly broken. But at least you don't spaz out over the screen 30% of your play time.

EDIT:
Oh yeah, what I also don't like about this game is how it deliberately flicks you off. Those Bomb and Heavy characters are a pain in the ass to deal with. Also, those shrink monitors that turn your character mini are only there to piss you off and get you stuck in the same place for 20 seconds or more. It's not funny or clever; it's another annoying aspect to a game that is plenty bad the way it is.

[Baloo]

Honestly I think the music and the graphics really put a nice polish to Knuckles Chaotix. The color palette is really cool, and the soundtrack is just leaps and bounds over every other Sonic video game. I also really like the levels, as they give way to simply running around at top-speed with your partner, which I think is a lot of fun. The special stages are also very good, challenging but a whole lot of fun too. I liked the fact that you could plays a lot of different characters with different abilities, and that the level select was random. Though I wish there was more of a variety of stages and bosses too.

I also like the fact that the Co-Op in Knuckles Chaotix is leaps and bounds better than in any of the other Sonic games, where Tails gets programmed to die or get lost in the stages pretty early. Playing Co-Op Knuckles Chaotix is a more fun experience.

Granted I will admit the level design is rough in some parts, and the lack of a challenge hurts the gameplay the most. But I don't think Knuckles Chaotix is a bad Sonic game by any means. Once you get used to the controls of the game it becomes a very fun experience I think, but there is a little bit of a learning curve.

[o.pwuaioc]

Co-op is never fun in any Sonic game, but honestly, I think the games don't need co-op.

[Retropolis Zone]

Honestly I think the music and the graphics really put a nice polish to Knuckles Chaotix. The color palette is really cool, and the soundtrack is just leaps and bounds over every other Sonic video game. I also really like the levels, as they give way to simply running around at top-speed with your partner, which I think is a lot of fun. The special stages are also very good, challenging but a whole lot of fun too. I liked the fact that you could plays a lot of different characters with different abilities, and that the level select was random. Though I wish there was more of a variety of stages and bosses too.

I also like the fact that the Co-Op in Knuckles Chaotix is leaps and bounds better than in any of the other Sonic games, where Tails gets programmed to die or get lost in the stages pretty early. Playing Co-Op Knuckles Chaotix is a more fun experience.

Granted I will admit the level design is rough in some parts, and the lack of a challenge hurts the gameplay the most. But I don't think Knuckles Chaotix is a bad Sonic game by any means. Once you get used to the controls of the game it becomes a very fun experience I think, but there is a little bit of a learning curve.

You wont's see me agreeing with this anytime soon, but hey we all have different tastes and perceptions. It's great that you and others can really enjoy the game. I didn't loathe Knuckles' Chaotix when I was playing it (or in general now), but when I break it down it's a monotonous, easy title at best and a broken, frustrating, boring and padded-out mess at worst. I would not recommend it to anybody unless they are curious Sonic fans. It's a waste of time otherwise; you're hoping the game gets better, but it just gets worse and worse as you go on.

Like I said, I do enjoy the special stages quite a bit; they might be the best between all the classics and this game. The music is also pretty good and likeable (Door Into Summer, Seascape, Midnight Greenhouse), but with five acts per zone and merely one arrangement... yeah, you get the whole idea.

I apologize if I sound a bit... harsh or mean or something. Not really my intention. I just have a tendency to explain my feelings and thoughts on something in a detailed fashion, hence why I make freakishly long videos doing just that. Haha.

[Baloo]

I'm not offended or anything like that over your opinion of Knuckles Chaotix. I enjoy the discourse on video games, otherwise I wouldn't be posting on these forums hahaha. I'm a huge critic of everything myself, so I see exactly where you're coming from on Chaotix.