Sega and Sony: New Insight into the Partnership That Never Came to Be

[Team Andromeda]

SOJ told SOA that they didn't think that the Saturn would be ready for a 1994 launch. SOJ launched the Saturn on November 22nd, one day after the launch of the 32X in North America. SOJ also delayed the launch of the 32X until December of that year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sega_Saturn

Slighty selective quoting of the Retrogamer feature some used to make out that Saturn was hidden from SEGA America and that SOA didn't get Saturn development kits until 95 (none of which, was quite true) Sure SOJ was worried about Hardware delays, the same happened with Nintendo (RARE said they had to make KI on the SNES because of N64 Hardware delays and it was all last min) that happens, even with SONY had to delay the PS3 by over a year; a system that also was difficult to develop for, cost a fortune on launch, had poor launch line up (but somehow only the Saturn gets called out for those issues)

The moment the 32X project should have been killed off was in April or more so in June 1994 . In April 1994 SEGA Japan showed off the completed Saturn chipset and design to the Press and officially announced the system would launch in Japan in Fall 94 And by the June Toyko gameshow 1994 we then had an exact street date and price too, So that's really when the 32X should have been dropped Even Scott, told retrogamer that the 32X should have been killed off, when SOJ got their 94 launch date. I would have loved to seen how Star Wars, Doom and Virtual Racing would have run on the Saturn if the same 32X Teams were put on Saturn versions and to me I didn't mind SEGA America's call to call early (it was nice see Hardware dates getting getting close to each other) I just think the launch date should have been July/Aug... when Bug, Virtual Fighter Remix and ClockworkKnight II were ready to go.

[Gryson]

SOJ told SOA that they didn't think that the Saturn would be ready for a 1994 launch. SOJ launched the Saturn on November 22nd, one day after the launch of the 32X in North America. SOJ also delayed the launch of the 32X until December of that year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sega_Saturn

It's a pretty well known story around here.

I don't really care what Wikipedia or Scot Bayless (a technical director on the other side of the world) have to say: it is a cold, hard fact that the Saturn had a clear launch date for over a year and met that date. I don't care if Scot Bayless or some other SOA employee was surprised that the Saturn launched when it did. Note that NOWHERE have you justified your statement that the Saturn had a "surprise 1994 launch in Japan" (your own words).

Here is a list of near-monthly comments published in Beep! MD in Japan describing the launch date of the Saturn. All of this info comes directly from Sega's corporate office. Keep in mind that publication date is actually one month ahead of when it was actually published:

Beep MD 11/93: “The Saturn is planned to go on sale next November… The price will be under 50,000 yen.”

Beep MD 3/94: “The Saturn will go on sale this autumn. The price has not yet been decided.”

Beep MD 4/94: Interview with the Saturn product manager Hideki Okamura: “The Saturn development is on schedule for launching in November of this year. Our target price is under 49,800 yen.”

Beep MD 5/94: “Preparations for the Saturn’s launch this fall are proceeding steadily.”

Beep MD 6/94: “The Saturn’s launch in November is quickly approaching, and the Mega Drive’s power-up booster “Genesis Super 32X” is planned to go on sale around the same time as the Saturn.” Quote from Okamura: “We are on target for our November launch.”

Beep MD 7/94: “Saturn release data: Nov. 1994.” “The 32X will be launching around the same time as the Saturn this autumn.”

Beep MD 9/94: “The target release date for both the Saturn and 32X will be in November.”

Beep MD 10/94: “Only two months until the launch of both the Saturn and 32X!” Quote from Okamura: “The project is proceeding on schedule for a launch sometime in November.”

The same info was published in every other gaming publication and newspaper.

Honestly, at this point, I think you'd have to be dense to argue that there was a "surprise 1994 launch of the Saturn in Japan."

[zyrobs]

You guys are mixing facts again. The "surprise launch" fiasco on the Saturn refers to the early American launch. That's what destroyed them, since it pissed off everyone who supported the 32x by killing it off in half a year, and it pissed off every store that Sega could not supply with Saturns at launch due to logistics issues.

If they keep the 32x alive for all of 1995, launch the Saturn at 1995 Xmas, then keep the 32x on life support till 1996 (or replace it and the genesis altogether with the Neptune), then they'd be much better off. That was the plan. But SOJ sold 1 million Saturns in 3 months due to Virtua Fighter, and wanted to launch the Saturn as early as possible in America, and it ruined them.

[Gryson]

You guys are mixing facts again. The "surprise launch" fiasco on the Saturn refers to the early American launch. That's what destroyed them, since it pissed off everyone who supported the 32x by killing it off in half a year, and it pissed off every store that Sega could not supply with Saturns at launch due to logistics issues.

If they keep the 32x alive for all of 1995, launch the Saturn at 1995 Xmas, then keep the 32x on life support till 1996 (or replace it and the genesis altogether with the Neptune), then they'd be much better off. That was the plan. But SOJ sold 1 million Saturns in 3 months due to Virtua Fighter, and wanted to launch the Saturn as early as possible in America, and it ruined them.

I don't think he's mixing facts here. As I recall, Scot Bayless (or someone else at SOA) did claim that the Saturn launched in Japan earlier than they had thought it would, which caused everybody's attention to go to that and wonder "Why should I buy an add-on when Japan already has a next gen console?" But that must be a misunderstanding on Bayless's part, since the Saturn launch in Japan was never a surprise (perhaps a surprise for him, though).

Also, it's pretty clear that the 32X was effectively dead a few months after it came out. Magazines were initially positive, but following that there were a lot of comments along the lines of "There are no big titles on the horizon - is Sega already abandoning the 32X?" Sega would have been in a tight financial position if they tried to rely on the 32X alone in 1995. Regardless, the 32X wasn't intended to compete or replace the Saturn. It was always Sega's intention to split the market (Genesis - 32X - Saturn), but the early death of the 32X may have prompted the early release of the Saturn in NA.

[axel]

I don't think he's mixing facts here. As I recall, Scot Bayless (or someone else at SOA) did claim that the Saturn launched in Japan earlier than they had thought it would, which caused everybody's attention to go to that and wonder "Why should I buy an add-on when Japan already has a next gen console?" But that must be a misunderstanding on Bayless's part, since the Saturn launch in Japan was never a surprise (perhaps a surprise for him, though).

Also, it's pretty clear that the 32X was effectively dead a few months after it came out. Magazines were initially positive, but following that there were a lot of comments along the lines of "There are no big titles on the horizon - is Sega already abandoning the 32X?" Sega would have been in a tight financial position if they tried to rely on the 32X alone in 1995. Regardless, the 32X wasn't intended to compete or replace the Saturn. It was always Sega's intention to split the market (Genesis - 32X - Saturn), but the early death of the 32X may have prompted the early release of the Saturn in NA.

That's how it sounds to me too, Bayless was simply clueless about the timeline, lack of communication.

The 32X as it happened was doomed to failure, but if it had gotten some AAA titles and the release of a standalone Neptune I think it could have done fine until 1996, of course it's hard to do all that when your best programmers and engineers are busy trying to get decent performance out of the Saturn...

[gamevet]

I don't really care what Wikipedia or Scot Bayless (a technical director on the other side of the world) have to say: it is a cold, hard fact that the Saturn had a clear launch date for over a year and met that date. I don't care if Scot Bayless or some other SOA employee was surprised that the Saturn launched when it did. Note that NOWHERE have you justified your statement that the Saturn had a "surprise 1994 launch in Japan" (your own words).

Here is a list of near-monthly comments published in Beep! MD in Japan describing the launch date of the Saturn. All of this info comes directly from Sega's corporate office. Keep in mind that publication date is actually one month ahead of when it was actually published:



The same info was published in every other gaming publication and newspaper.

Honestly, at this point, I think you'd have to be dense to argue that there was a "surprise 1994 launch of the Saturn in Japan."

The ONLY reason SOA was approached by SOJ with a stop gap system (which became the 32X) was because they did not believe that they would have the Saturn ready for that launch date. Like Tom said, SEGA looked greedy by releasing both hardware around the same time. Looking at the software that was available for the Saturn, compared to 32X clearly points towards a rushed Saturn launch, with a rushed version of Virtua Fighter being one of the few games available for it. The North American early launch barely had a lineup either and I had a really hard time finding a Japanese game to play, let alone North America for the 4 1st months I owned it.

[Gryson]

The ONLY reason SOA was approached by SOJ with a stop gap system (which became the 32X) was because they did not believe that they would have the Saturn ready for that launch date. Like Tom said, SEGA looked greedy by releasing both hardware around the same time. Looking at the software that was available for the Saturn, compared to 32X clearly points towards a rushed Saturn launch, with a rushed version of Virtua Fighter being one of the few games available for it. The North American early launch barely had a lineup either and I had a really hard time finding a Japanese game to play, let alone North America for the 4 1st months I owned it.

That's not at all true. There are many statements to the contrary, from both the heads of Sega Enterprises and Sega of America. The 32X came about because a $400 console was a hard sell in the American market. There was a vast install base of Genesis systems, but owners weren't buying many games becase the next generation was looming. The 32X was a way to stimulate sales within this user base.

Honestly, it's a bit ridiculous to suggest that Sega couldn't get the Saturn to market by 1994 despite beginning development in 1992, but they could get the 32X to market in 10 months??

You have zero evidence to suggest that the Saturn wasn't ready to launch in Japan in Nov. 1994. Give it up. You're misunderstanding something fundamental about the history here.

[axel]

That's not at all true. There are many statements to the contrary, from both the heads of Sega Enterprises and Sega of America. The 32X came about because a $400 console was a hard sell in the American market. There was a vast install base of Genesis systems, but owners weren't buying many games becase the next generation was looming. The 32X was a way to stimulate sales within this user base.

Based on what I've seen published here I tend to agree but that still makes little sense, when have you ever seen a company release two brand new home consoles at the same time? It never happened before or again because it is an idiotic strategy. At some point communication must have broken down because there is no way a company like Sega would have planned for something like that.

[Team Andromeda]

I don't think he's mixing facts here. As I recall, Scot Bayless (or someone else at SOA) did claim that the Saturn launched in Japan earlier than they had thought it would, which caused everybody's attention to go to that and wonder "Why should I buy an add-on when Japan already has a next gen console?" But that must be a misunderstanding on Bayless's part, since the Saturn launch in Japan was never a surprise (perhaps a surprise for him, though).

The improved Saturn specs to counter the PS, did make some inside SEGA Japan and America think it wouldn't make it to the market in 1994, but come the summer of 1994 it was clear to all that SEGA Japan was going to hit in Nov 94. You couldn't be in any doubt after the Toyko game show in 1994
I also have no big issue with the early launch of the Saturn, I was always sick of the long wait and gap between the Japanese domestic launch to the west. I just feel SEGA picked the wrong month to go early. It would have made more sense to go in late July or early Aug 1995 when Bug, Virtual Fighter Remix and Clockwork Knight II were all ready to go

Scott even says himself, that SOA should have killed the 32X inthe spring of 94

[Team Andromeda]

The 32X came about because a $400 console was a hard sell in the American market. There was a vast install base of Genesis systems, but owners weren't buying many games becase the next generation was looming. The 32X was a way to stimulate sales within this user base..

It wasn't just the price, it was also SEGA very worried (even though now its sounds silly) about the 3DO (given its EA links) and the Jaguar; People can laugh at it now, but many developers (including id) were talking the Jaguar up and how for the planned price, it was going to be a great console with solid 3D and a 2D chipset 2nd to none.
I also remember like you say.. so many were all for the 32X (even most of the press and developers) but SONY showed people were ready to dump their 16 bit systems, wanted something new and were willing to pay for it and just killed, any real chance the 32X might have had

If the 32X had come out in 1993, things could well have been so very different mind. I myself would have rathered seen SEGA go with the original plan of a CD based and Cart based Saturn (Jupiter). So at least that way you had a much cheaper system to sell and could share development resources and at a later date those who bought the Jupiter could have added a CD-Rom drive, when the costs of CD drive really started to come down in price in 1996 and thanks to the Cart inside the Saturn users could play any of their Jupiter cart games too.

[axel]

It wasn't just the price, it was also SEGA very worried (even though now its sounds silly) about the 3DO (given its EA links) and the Jaguar; People can laugh at it now, but many developers (including id) were talking the Jaguar up and how for the planned price, it was going to be a great console with solid 3D and a 2D chipset 2nd to none.
I also remember like you say.. so many were all for the 32X (even most of the press and developers) but SONY showed people were ready to dump their 16 bit systems, wanted something new and were willing to pay for it and just killed, any real chance the 32X might have had

If the 32X had come out in 1993, things could well have been so very different mind. I myself would have rathered seen SEGA go with the original plan of a CD based and Cart based Saturn (Jupiter). So at least that way you had a much cheaper system to sell and could share development resources and at a later date those who bought the Jupiter could have added a CD-Rom drive, when the costs of CD drive really started to come down in price in 1996 and thanks to the Cart inside the Saturn users could play any of their Jupiter cart games too.

So basically -- one system to compete with Atari/3DO and a second system to compete with Sony/Nintendo?
That just doesn't make sense. I'm not disagreeing with you because you've done your research, but wow what a crazy hardware strategy.

[Gryson]

Based on what I've seen published here I tend to agree but that still makes little sense, when have you ever seen a company release two brand new home consoles at the same time? It never happened before or again because it is an idiotic strategy. At some point communication must have broken down because there is no way a company like Sega would have planned for something like that.

Well, it was a convoluted situation. I don't think communication ever broke down. Both the American and Japan sides were working together closely on it, and both seemed sold on the idea. The problem was really the cost of the hardware.

It wasn't just the price, it was also SEGA very worried (even though now its sounds silly) about the 3DO (given its EA links) and the Jaguar; People can laugh at it now, but many developers (including id) were talking the Jaguar up and how for the planned price, it was going to be a great console with solid 3D and a 2D chipset 2nd to none.

This doesn't really make sense, though. I know Bayless said that Nakayama was worried about the Jaguar, but that's exactly what the Saturn was going to overcome. I think there was likely some context missing from what Bayless reported. I mean, imagine it's Jan. 1994. Sega has been working on the Saturn for 2 years. It has a planned release date of Nov. 1994. Nakayama is worried about competition from the Jaguar, so what does he do? He decides to order the development of a new console/add-on at the last minute?! That makes no sense when you already have the Saturn in the pipeline about ready to go. A 10-month complete turnaround on a console (even an add-on) was a bit extreme.

I think it's much more likely that Nakayama was responding to SOA's concern about the Saturn's cost:

SOA: "We can't sell a $400 console!"
Nakayama: "Well, we've got to sell something! The Jaguar is going to kill our momentum."

Regardless, Nakayama has clearly stated that the 32X came about because of SOA's concerns about the cost of the Saturn. This has been supported by people like Shinobu Toyoda and Hideki Sato. The 32X was seen as a cheaper option to stimulate sales from the many Genesis owners.

So basically -- one system to compete with Atari/3DO and a second system to compete with Sony/Nintendo?
That just doesn't make sense. I'm not disagreeing with you because you've done your research, but wow what a crazy hardware strategy.

It doesn't make sense because that wasn't their strategy.

[gamevet]

That's not at all true. There are many statements to the contrary, from both the heads of Sega Enterprises and Sega of America. The 32X came about because a $400 console was a hard sell in the American market. There was a vast install base of Genesis systems, but owners weren't buying many games becase the next generation was looming. The 32X was a way to stimulate sales within this user base.

Honestly, it's a bit ridiculous to suggest that Sega couldn't get the Saturn to market by 1994 despite beginning development in 1992, but they could get the 32X to market in 10 months??

You know good and well that the hardware design Sega had in 1992 was nothing like the final product. It was Sega experimenting. And do you really believe that Joe Miller came up with the idea of the 2 SH2 chips in the 32X?

You have zero evidence to suggest that the Saturn wasn't ready to launch in Japan in Nov. 1994. Give it up. You're misunderstanding something fundamental about the history here.

I was looking through all of my EGM magazines from 1993 to the 1st quarter of 1995. The reports about the hardware were all over the place. Even the hardware specs and speculations about Sega making the Saturn compatible with the 32X were being mentioned. In all of those magazines I saw one time where the launch of the Saturn in Japan for the fall of 1994 was mentioned and that was the May 1994 issue of EGM, which means Ed had heard of it somewhere around March of that year. The 1994 CES had final specs and the infamous artist rendition of what the console would look like, and if I'm not mistaken, there was mention (in a later issue) of devs finally getting to see kits for it @ mid 1994.

Joe Miller (in this Sega-16 interview) does give a hint that they were caught off guard by as much as 12 months about being ready for the Saturn.

http://www.sega-16.com/2013/02/interview-joe-miller/

I can only speak from a personal perspective, based on my relationships and meetings, and I never saw a deteriorating side of that. There was a lot of consternation in the latter days, when we had the real issues surrounding the timing of the launch of Saturn and the competing platforms out there, what we were doing, and what our strategy was with respect to getting better 32X penetration with third parties, etc. We had many serious conversations, but we never lost the personal and professional respect that we had garnered during the salad days, the growth years when we were exceeding expectations and meeting or beating the numbers we had committed to. I’d say that the rhetoric around the deteriorating relationship is probably overblown a little bit, based on what I’ve read. Nakayama-san and SOJ knew they had a strong, proven management team in place at SOA, and while everyone was concerned about growing the business, neither side lost confidence in the other.

One of the stories that hasn’t been told is that the 32X actually helped development teams that had been successful on Genesis make the step up to the Hitachi SH-2 – dual SH-2s in that case – and there were a bunch of routines, a collection of tools and compilers that were created to support 32X development that were adapted and ported over to Saturn. The early launch meant that we had to accelerate all of that in the pipeline as well – all the cross-development tools, all the documentation – and get developers ramped up 6, 8, 12 months earlier than we had expected or intended

The mention of 12 months makes it pretty obvious what he was talking about.

[Da_Shocker]

How on earth did Sega feel that Atari was a threat? Given how the 5200 and 7800 pretty much bombed out all of the sudden they were supposed gain some sort of momentum with the Jaguar? Which had lackluster first party games and very little 3rd party support.

[Gryson]

You know good and well that the hardware design Sega had in 1992 was nothing like the final product. It was Sega experimenting. And do you really believe that Joe Miller came up with the idea of the 2 SH2 chips in the 32X?

edit: Saturn design was mostly finalized by autumn 1993 (the decision to use two chips was made in Sept. 1993: see here). Development of Panzer Dragoon began in late 1993.

I was looking through all of my EGM magazines from 1993 to the 1st quarter of 1995. The reports about the hardware were all over the place. Even the hardware specs and speculations about Sega making the Saturn compatible with the 32X were being mentioned. In all of those magazines I saw one time where the launch of the Saturn in Japan for the fall of 1994 was mentioned and that was the May 1994 issue of EGM, which means Ed had heard of it somewhere around March of that year. The 1994 CES had final specs and the infamous artist rendition of what the console would look like, and if I'm not mistaken, there was mention (in a later issue) of devs finally getting to see kits for it @ mid 1994.

Joe Miller (in this Sega-16 interview) does give a hint that they were caught off guard by as much as 12 months about being ready for the Saturn.

http://www.sega-16.com/2013/02/interview-joe-miller/



The mention of 12 months makes it pretty obvious what he was talking about.

Gamevet, I do not care what EGM says. I just posted straight, unadulterated evidence from the most accurate Sega magazine ever, Beep! Mega Drive, which clearly demonstrates that the Saturn was scheduled (from Oct.1993) to launch in Nov. 1994 and it met that schedule. You're not going to find a more accurate source, so don't bother looking. For fuck's sake, they have direct quotes from the Saturn product manager throughout 1994 constantly stating that it's going to be released Nov. 1994. And you're still arguing that there was a surprise launch?! Because EGM didn't report on it?!?

And seriously, Joe Miller is talking about the early US launch in that quote. He specifically says that they were porting tools over to the Saturn from the 32X, but they had to speed it up because it launched earlier than expected (IN THE US).

willful ignorance
(noun)
The practice or act of intentional and blatant avoidance, disregard or disagreement with facts, empirical evidence and well-founded arguments because they oppose or contradict your own existing personal beliefs.

How on earth did Sega feel that Atari was a threat? Given how the 5200 and 7800 pretty much bombed out all of the sudden they were supposed gain some sort of momentum with the Jaguar? Which had lackluster first party games and very little 3rd party support.

Take that with a grain of salt... it's third-hand info remembered way after the fact by one guy. But the context of the comment was immediately after the Jaguar's launch.

Sega's management was much more worried about the PC market in North America. That's likely the dominant factor in why the 16-bit market dried up in 1994. You can see Kalinske trying to downplay the size of the PC market in old interviews. Kind of funny.