Sega and Sony: New Insight into the Partnership That Never Came to Be

[gamevet]

edit: Saturn design was mostly finalized by autumn 1993 (the decision to use two chips was made in Sept. 1993: see here). Development of Panzer Dragoon began in late 1993.

That supports what I'd said and was just 4 months before the 1994 CES where a decision was made for the 32X.

Gamevet, I do not care what EGM says. I just posted straight, unadulterated evidence from the most accurate Sega magazine ever, Beep! Mega Drive, which clearly demonstrates that the Saturn was scheduled (from Oct.1993) to launch in Nov. 1994 and it met that schedule. You're not going to find a more accurate source, so don't bother looking. For fuck's sake, they have direct quotes from the Saturn product manager throughout 1994 constantly stating that it's going to be released Nov. 1994. And you're still arguing that there was a surprise launch?! Because EGM didn't report on it?!?

I researched EGM, because they were the mouthpiece of information being leaked to North America. Quarterman called the $299 price of the PlayStation 6 months before E3, yet somehow SEGA was supposedly blindsided by it.

And seriously, Joe Miller is talking about the early US launch in that quote. He specifically says that they were porting tools over to the Saturn from the 32X, but they had to speed it up because it launched earlier than expected (IN THE US).

12 months from the early US launch would be May of 1994 and 6 months would be November of 1994. That doesn't add up to the planned September 1995 North American launch. He was talking about the 1994 launch of PlayStation that put pressure on SEGA to launch the Saturn weeks prior in Japan.

willful ignorance
(noun)
The practice or act of intentional and blatant avoidance, disregard or disagreement with facts, empirical evidence and well-founded arguments because they oppose or contradict your own existing personal beliefs.

Presume

verb
1.
suppose that something is the case on the basis of probability.
"I presumed that the man had been escorted from the building"

[Team Andromeda]

So basically -- one system to compete with Atari/3DO and a second system to compete with Sony/Nintendo?
That just doesn't make sense. I'm not disagreeing with you because you've done your research, but wow what a crazy hardware strategy.

SEGA was looking into a spiced up Mega Drive very early in, I remember reading stories of the GigaDrive (the 32bit Mega Drive) before the Mega Drive itself, even launched in the UK; Mean Machines (Uk gaming mag) even thought the Mega CD was the planned GigaDrive at one stage, due to the use of dual 16-Bit CPU's
NEC was always looking to improve their system and when they got worried about the planned Mega Drive they came up with the Super Grafx and so like SEGA had two main systems support (and also a CD add on) and market at the same time, the only diff was they were both 8-bit and the NEC couldn't handle it, much like SEGA. The PC Super Grafx was a complete and utter flop and it is a system that still to this day doesn't make much sense, much like the 32X. All becasue the time they hit market was all wrong and the predicted threats never materialised

Sometimes it can work out though, when Nintendo got wind of the PSP, they had to act quickly and came up with the DS and as ARM told EDGE, that wasn't quite the original plan of Nintendo's or the true planned to follow up to the GBA, but Nintendo was worried about the news SONY would be coming into the Handheld markets and had to act very fast to try and counter it and in true Nintendo style, they made it work.

[Team Andromeda]

How on earth did Sega feel that Atari was a threat? Given how the 5200 and 7800 pretty much bombed out all of the sudden they were supposed gain some sort of momentum with the Jaguar? Which had lackluster first party games and very little 3rd party support.

It's easy to say and think like that now, but I remember looking backinto the period of when The Jaguar was getting the hype it was widely covered in all the all main gaming press and I remember the head of both Dixsons and Virgin Iteraiment saying that if the Jaguar had a Nintendo or SEGA badge on it, it would clean up at retail and Dixons at the time was the UK biggest electrical retailer. People were taking notice, more so with the planned price of the Jaguar and its very decent spec. I was more worried about the 3DO and that seems mad at the time. But to me, EA really helped make the Mega Drive and almost any MD game they made was class and to see their former Boss set up 3D0 and EA being behind the Project in a huge way (with each 3DO game planned to have a 5 million dollar budget) got me slightly worried.

SEGA was also worried over Atari patients too and paid out one of the most ridiculous settlements I can remember in the video game industry and also gave Atari access to nearly all its IP other than SONIC.
I'm amazed that SEGA's lawyers saw fit to recommend an out of court settlement with a huge Payout, SEGA buying a load of Atari shares too and allowing Atari to use SEGA IP.

[Team Andromeda]

This doesn't really make sense, though. I know Bayless said that Nakayama was worried about the Jaguar, but that's exactly what the Saturn was going to overcome. I think there was likely some context missing from what Bayless reported. I mean, imagine it's Jan. 1994. Sega has been working on the Saturn for 2 years. It has a planned release date of Nov. 1994. Nakayama is worried about competition from the Jaguar, so what does he do? He decides to order the development of a new console/add-on at the last minute?! That makes no sense when you already have the Saturn in the pipeline about ready to go. A 10-month complete turnaround on a console (even an add-on) was a bit extreme..

Bayless and SEGA Japan staff said that SEGA was worried about the Jaguar and 3DO, more so as the Saturn project might have to be delayed beyond 1994, because SEGA was so badly caught out with the PS spec's and that SONY was coming to the market. I can see why SEGA would be worried that the 3DO and Jaguar could have all the next-gen market to themselves in 1994 and early 95, while it looked to counter the SONY specs. SEGA was always looking at threats, I mean you more than anyone should know about the planned Giga Drive; which was a Mega Drive with better spec and more colour's, which SEGA Japan was pushing for while SEGA West was more looking at the SVP and add-ons as a better route.
SEGA was also worried about the price of the Saturn double speed CD drives and lots of memory was so costly back in 1994. I much rathered the plan of a Saturn with-out the 2Mb of Ram and CD Drive to slash costs, to go along with the CD based Saturn

There is no doubt that the Saturn was planned for fall 1994 even at the very early stage.
Hitachi and SEGA held a press conference in Japan of Spring 1993 to announce their partnership and where the SH-2 was shown off for the planned system launch of 94 (it was no more specific than that) . I think what messed all that plan up was the news in November of that year (1993) of SONY's shock news and mighty spec, to which SEGA had to try and counter and came up with the dual SH-2 design and the need to beef up the number of sprites the VDP1 could handle (so the Saturn could push more polygons). That was no doubt the main issues SEGA were dealing with and why SOJ called up SOA in January 1994 to try and come with counter plans.

[Team Andromeda]

Take that with a grain of salt... it's third-hand info remembered way after the fact by one guy. But the context of the comment was immediately after the Jaguar's launch.

Sega's management was much more worried about the PC market in North America. That's likely the dominant factor in why the 16-bit market dried up in 1994. You can see Kalinske trying to downplay the size of the PC market in old interviews. Kind of funny.

Take it from Scott Bayless.




Also, I don't think SEGA were worried about the PC at all. They set up the likes of SEGA Soft and in Japan set up a dictated PC division (which went on to become Smilebit) and ported quite a number of Arcade titles, Mega Drive/Mega CD and Saturn titles to the PC and also looked to do deals with Nvidia's 3D card, hell Sonic X was in development for the PC at one stage too

[axel]

The more I read on this site the more I'm left scratching my head at Sega's decisions in the 1990s. The Jaguar never sold well. Even if it had, who cares when you have a much more powerful system already in the works? Why was there a rush to create a Genesis add-on to compete with a console few people owned?

The common narrative is that the 32X was a response to the SNES add-on chips and the fact that Virtua Racing was so expensive, to me that makes a lot more sense than this idea that the Jaguar had to be stopped at all costs.

[Gryson]

The more I read on this site the more I'm left scratching my head at Sega's decisions in the 1990s. The Jaguar never sold well. Even if it had, who cares when you have a much more powerful system already in the works? Why was there a rush to create a Genesis add-on to compete with a console few people owned?

The common narrative is that the 32X was a response to the SNES add-on chips and the fact that Virtua Racing was so expensive, to me that makes a lot more sense than this idea that the Jaguar had to be stopped at all costs.

If you're interested, check out Keith Stuart's history in Sega Mega Drive/Genesis: Collected Works. He has interviews with the top people in both Japan and the US and they all say that the 32X came about because there were worries that the Saturn would be priced too high for the American market. Scot Bayless wasn't that high up on the food chain so he probably didn't have the full picture there.

I've actually been in the process of writing an article on the history of the 32X with some newly-translated sources, so I think that will dispel some of this confusion.

[Leynos]

Wait, what? The 32X was a response to the Jaguar? What next PS4 was a response to the Ouya because both controllers had a touchpad? Was SEGA really that fucking stupid?

[Gryson]

[Leynos]

Fine I will look at TA's post. I have him on ignore so I only saw who you quoted. It just seems really wierd anyone esp SEGA gave any serious thought to Atari in 1993 as being a threat.Also, I believe PS4 touchpad was insurance take in case Wii U succeeded much like Sixaxis to Wii motion controls but that's pretty obvious. Tho I typically call it the select-tangle since that seems to be it's only real purpose. (Still prefer it over a giant cumbersome tablet)

[Da_Shocker]

The Jaguar did indeed have a great price point but the software was NEVER there. The best games seems to be PC ports and or games inspired by Sega (Super Burnout) and Nintendo (Atari Karts). It lasted 3 years and there was less than 50 games released. 3DO was not a mass market device. Maybe it would have fared better with VCD built in at 699. I just find it hard to believe that the 32X was created to counter 2 massively flawed systems compared to simply releasing an add on because your new system is going to be 399.99.

[axel]

The thing is the 32X did not have that low of a price either, it was a $160 but you needed to have a Genesis already. For casuals and people who were just getting into gaming and wanted a budget system a Genesis+32X didn't save them any money, a Jaguar alone was probably cheaper. Sure it was a bargain if you already owned a Genesis but Genesis owners who were willing to invest in a brand-new add-on in 1994 are the kind of people who were likely to purchase whatever console Sega put out at the time.

At the end of the day it still makes no sense to release two home consoles at the same time.

[Blades]

I've actually been in the process of writing an article on the history of the 32X with some newly-translated sources, so I think that will dispel some of this confusion.

Yesssssssssssss

[Team Andromeda]

If you're interested, check out Keith Stuart's history in Sega Mega Drive/Genesis: Collected Works. He has interviews with the top people in both Japan and the US and they all say that the 32X came about because there were worries that the Saturn would be priced too high for the American market. Scot Bayless wasn't that high up on the food chain so he probably didn't have the full picture there.

I've actually been in the process of writing an article on the history of the 32X with some newly-translated sources, so I think that will dispel some of this confusion.

He was was SEGA Senior America technical director, only one down form Joe and run SOA techncial dept . Also Marty Fran told Retro gamer, not only it was he who asked for thr SH2's but SEGA was worried over the Jag, also confirmed by SEGA Europe Barry Jefro.

Maybe you need better sources for the article. Because its looks quite clear SEGA were worried over the Jag that is backed up my not just Scott, but by Barry Jeffro, Marty Franz's and I think even Joe Miller (in one interview with I think Retro) I would imagine that not only was SEGA worried about the Jag, 3DO but also maybe even the planned SNES CD which was meant to have a 32Bit CPU and some amazing tech (none of which really proved to be true) bu

I also find it very puzzling why you think SEGA were worried about the PC. When SEGA America set up SEGASoft, Started to port its Mega Drive and Mega CD games to Window's 95, SEGA Japan set up a dedicated PC Line in SEGA Japan and also SEGA made the TerraDrive and also allowed Amstrad to use the Mega Drive technology in its Amstrad MEGA PC and did a deal with Nivda, for the Diamond Edge 3D card for the PC and infact Both SEGA and Nivda even looked to work on a system together

[Team Andromeda]

Fine I will look at TA's post. I have him on ignore so I only saw who you quoted. It just seems really wierd anyone esp SEGA gave any serious thought to Atari in 1993 as being a threat.Also, I believe PS4 touchpad was insurance take in case Wii U succeeded much like Sixaxis to Wii motion controls but that's pretty obvious. Tho I typically call it the select-tangle since that seems to be it's only real purpose. (Still prefer it over a giant cumbersome tablet)

I like to deal on facts and look to see when a number of people tell the say story (rather than a single individual or some internet chat) Sega was worried over the Jag and 3D0, I bet it was even worried over the SNES CD too
. And since your bring up the Wii , both Sony and MS were worried about it and motion controls eating into their market, Hence why we go Move and MS own add-on disaster, that was Kinect.