Paprium: The Official Thread Mk 2

[stika]

So, between lines you are saying that paprium is more quantity than quality?

If you wish to bog down replay value to just "quantity", by all means.

[pepodmc]

If you wish to bog down replay value to just "quantity", by all means.

its what you said, replay value taking in consideration the ammount of stages, endings and secrets.

Replay value of the gameplay itself as a beat em up its not because its average.

[stika]

its what you said, replay value taking in consideration the ammount of stages, endings and secrets.

Replay value of the gameplay itself as a beat em up its not because its average.

I tend to view quantity as something more linear (although yes, Paprium is definitely bigger), whereas I tend to view replay value as a game motivating you to play again to try something different.

I view them as two similar but separate things, but I also understand if you view them as the same.

[pepodmc]

I tend to view quantity as something more linear (although yes, Paprium is definitely bigger), whereas I tend to view replay value as a game motivating you to play again to try something different.

I view them as two similar but separate things, but I also understand if you view them as the same.

you get wrong my point.

I consider quantity and quality as two diffent things too.

I was talking about which thing give this game replay value, which gameplay as a beat em up its not, because its average as i said before, no one can deny that.

What gives paprium replay value as you said, are the ammount of stages,secrets and endings, that means that in this case, its replay value its more a thing of the ammount of content the game has than the quality of it.

Because its rare that a game with worse gameplay is better than a game with better gameplay, if we are talkig about videogames

[stika]

you get wrong my point.

I consider quantity and quality as two diffent things too.

I was talking about which thing give this game replay value, which gameplay as a beat em up its not, because its average as i said before, no one can deny that.

What gives paprium replay value as you said, are the ammount of stages,secrets and endings, that means that in this case, its replay value its more a thing of the ammount of content the game has than the quality of it.

Because its rare that a game with worse gameplay is better than a game with better gameplay, if we are talkig about videogames

Oh THAT'S what you meant, my bad, I completely missed your point.

Yeah I think that's a fair assessment. The game definitely leans on the amount of content, which to be fair, isn't necessarily a bad thing. ^^

[evilevoix]

What is the issue with the sound on PAPRIUM on a NOMAD? I keep reading about compatibility issues but am not clear on it.

[Devil N]

If I could go back in time I'd add standardizing refresh rates to the list of things I'd do along the way. Catch me arguing with some engineer that a blue cartoon hedgehog isn't running fast enough in the future. On that topic. PAL region folks, if I do ever receive my copy should I play in 50hz or modded 60hz? Also keep in mind borders aren't an issue with framemeister scaling options

If you're still curious about how the game runs in 50 Hz, I just put up a video demonstrating it:



Coming from 60 Hz it feels a bit sluggish at first but you get used to it pretty quickly, and after a while you don't really think about it anymore. It looks and plays rather well in 50 Hz in my opinion.

[Goati]

For being objective you need to establish a rating criteria system accepted by every participant. Vludi is not using one of them.

It's not a scientific debate: beat 'em ups must be fun, satisfying, and have some sort of pacing.
If the enemy variety is boring, the game itself drags too much and the AI and balance pose no challenge whatsoever, then the pixelart and music can be however great you want, but it's still "objectively" a mess with unfinished core mechanics and has over-developed on the rest.
Mind you, I'm fully aware of two things:

1) Paprium had to deliver on stuff like multiple paths, secrets, etc, because that was the prerequisite to the gem-founding initiative. It wasn't gonna happen otherwise. So it's unsurprising that it has all that nice "content" but it's dull.
If you can't see that it's not a satisfying beat 'em up because of its laughable hit detection, the undeveloped AI and the absolute lack of any kind of challenge(not even on VHard or Paprium), then I'll show myself out of the conversation

2) People are emotionally invested in the game, and are going to have overreact on the game whether they mean to praise it or criticize it: this is also to be expected, what with the funding, the preordering, the waiting, the frustration, etc. I, however, have no emotional investment in the game whatsoever and have enjoyed the Fonzie drama and lore, and felt like I got my money's worth with just that. My view is purely from a passionate videogame analytical standpoint; I'm also a big defender of bad games, so I'm even out of my element here, saying how I think Paprium can't be defended as a beat 'em up

Correct me if I’m wrong but this statement suggests you have yet to play it and herein lies the problem: most who have received their copies (but certainly not all) seem to have the opinion that yes it is flawed but ultimately still an enjoyable game. The harshest criticism seems to stem from those who haven’t played it. How can this be a balanced debate? I guess we won’t know until the shipping debacle has been cleared up.

I've played Paprium for almost 20 hours (before getting my savefile locked), but the game's poor quality as a beat 'em up was clear after a few minutes where I was hitting enemies with jumpkicks from a big chunk of pixels away and the AI just wasn't there.
To further analyze, even if you take the jumpkick abuse out, the game is still boring. Is "boring" objective? No, I agree, fun is subjective. But the pace, momentum and variety are just not there when you slog through a 1+ hour beat 'em up. Was I not streaming it to a live audience, I would have had a harder time trying to get fun out of it.
What's objective is:

• Level Design and Pacing
• AI behaviour
• Hit detection
• Enemy Variety
• Challenge
• Move variety

And those are, in order of importance perhaps, qualities that matter in a beat 'em up, brawler, belt scroller, action platformer or whatever label you want to slap on a videogame.
Graphics, music, SFX, unlockables, extras, branching paths... Nice, but they don't make a good beat 'em up, do they?

I'm not trying to change anybody's mind, especially not when people get defensive about a game they're enjoying (and why would I, that's a good thing).
What I'm doing here is explaining why the "Paprium is a good beat 'em up" opinion is very funny.

I do feel that Fonzie’s quite frankly atrocious business practices and terrible customer service is resulting in a lot of salt.

It's true that the whole controversy and drama is causing a lot of bitternes; I think the opposite effect is also happening though, because at this point, reading some opinions, it either comes down to self-justification or not knowing the difference between a good and a bad beat 'em up!
I might come off as rude, but I'm just tryin' speak my mind in an environment where people, especially on the praising side imho, are being a bit aggressive while trying to legitimize their opinion about a videogame

If this was developed by Bitmap Bureau or Big Evil with all their fantastic updates, feedback, fairly accurate timescales and future multi-platform releases then I have no doubt everyone and their dog would be gushing over the many positive and even groundbreaking aspects of the game whilst of course still acknowledging it is not perfect.

Surely somewhat true, but as much as I respect and enjoy Xeno Crisis and Tanglewood, they also come with serious pacing issues. Those two titles, however, are actually finished and polished enough products with proper core mechanics that pose a challenge to players of their respective genres.

Some developers say that a videogame's quality is first and foremost dictated by the challenge it provides and by the progression of said challenge: if the game is too easy for too long, you get bored. If the game is too hard, you get frustrated.

Again different expectations and preferences. IMO beat'em ups should not be too long.

That's a good point: if a beat 'em up is long then it ought to keep things interesting, fresh, non repetitive... Like any other videogame genre. It's just very hard to achieve that in a beat 'em up.
Paprium has quality and variety for at most a 10 minute brainless beat 'em up experience, something like Ane-san on PCE-CD (way better game, although also a bad beat 'em up), not for a 1h30 dull slog reminiscent of Taiwanese MD beat 'em ups.

Also constant jumpkicking is a player choice and SOR2 has boring corridors with same enemies too.

It's not like Paprium is good if you don't jump... I don't think it works like that.
Also SoR2 is a good beat 'em up that constantly keeps things fresh and interesting with everyone of the above points in the list, I
played it this week and I can't think of a boring corridor, whereas I played Paprium last month and I can tell you where and why it's a severely lackluster experience as a videogame of the same genre.

But you wrote yourself that if someone has fun with Paprium, then it is good. Yet it is funny when somebody wrote it based on their own experience with it.

Yes of course it's entertainment, as long as you have fun it's good. It doesn't make the game good, though
I'm writing here about it having played it extensively myself, I had fun streaming the game because of the audience and because I can find jank enjoyment out of anything, I didn't find the actual game fun, because it completely flops on everything that makes a beat 'em up fun. Likewise, it seems that other people are having fun with the game because of other reasons that are certainly(and that's objective) not good challenge, polish, balance, AI, pacing, hit detection, design or variety of enemies/situations. And that's cool! Just ask yourself if you're having fun with a good beat 'em up or if you're only having fun with a game you like, before getting defensive about your opinion or uploading a review about it (I don't mean to address you or anybody here in particular, molasar!)

Also yes, in many beat'em ups jumpkick can be exploited. Sadly a lot of fun is lost by doing so.

I see this comment reiterated around, and I gotta be honest with you: to me it sounds like you haven't actually tried jumpkicking-spam in many arcade beat 'em ups
Certainly though, not many allow you to, uh, jumpkick through almost the whole screen with a button press like Paprium does...

For a beat 'em up where you can also very easily spam the jump kick, which is even more broken than Paprium, a good example is Ane-san, which has even less enemy variety and more basic level design, but at least it's short, has more charisma and doesn't overquote another game like Paprium does with its constant SoR references.

For an actual arcade beat 'em up, however, you might find it more troublesome to employ such a strategy in a viable way, as arcade games are meant to generate revenue and they wouldn't pass location test if they were anything like Paprium on the challenge-side (forget the length).
There are, however, some examples, but they still require lots of skills: see this P.O.W. Prisoner of War Hardest no damage 1CC run by Scoop:


I should have succeeded in, at least, assuring that my "Paprium is a bad beat 'em up" statement comes from a place of educated videogame analysis, not from any personal emotional involvement or attachment to the game's campaign or whatever else, as I think is the case for most comments.

[paulojr_mam]

I don't think at the time of Sega Genesis people judged beat 'em ups as deeply as I'm seeing them do in this thread. But of course it was a time where games were more for kids and teens than anyone else. People here are judging the game based on years of experience playing games, an experience that the ordinary player simply didn't have at the time. And I think beat 'em ups are a genre that people pay attention even less to gameplay (I know I did/do). What I mean is yes, Paprium's gameplay is not up to par, and yes gameplay is the single most-important thing in a game. But for the genre it is in it passes, the amount of content do help its cause greatly, I think. And at the time it might have been seen as in the same league as SoR2 and 3 by the general audiences.

And there's another thing to take into account, which is fatigue. SoR2 or 3 are smaller games than Paprium, and beat 'em up is a naturally repetitive genre. So playing it for long hours will make the experience worse. So you have to either judge Paprium as a game you play in short bursts and review it as that sort of experience (like you'd review SoR) or you review it like you do current games, a campaign to be played from start to finish in long play sessions.

From my point of view what holds this game back is AI. That is its downfall. That makes it not a good game, because it makes the moment-to-moment action underdeveloped and unsatisfying. And it's a definite flaw of the game, one that permeates the whole experience, pulling everything dow.

[Vludi]

Relevant, this is your opinion, not a fact. Personally I do not remember anyone being excited about it in the 80s.

Balanced moveset without overpowered moves, enemy design that is distinctive and require different approaches, good risk-reward scoring system, fun gameplay that requires lots of timing, reflexes and spacing etc. Sorry, but those are all objective aspects in where a 1984 game is better than Paprium. And don't be ridiculous downplaying it, the game was pretty popular at the time, NES port sold 3.5 million copies which is pretty big for a beat 'em up.

Lol. I think you still do not understand why I play video games.

Probably just badly founded nostalgia that fails to understand the appeal of old arcade games at all, either way don't care.

For gameplay only I do not care if I am winning or losing as long as I enjoy mechanics.

Quite ridiculous as winning/losing conditions are basic gameplay standards tied to the mechanics of these type of games, or any type of game really.

Also those max difficulty runs are so boring, generic and schematic. I guess it is your way of enjoying games. You treat them as a work to do and enjoyment is an afterthought.

lol this amusing fallacy again. So having good gameplay and challenge in a game = it's boring and too much work, but 20 hours of mindless play to unlock some pointless content nobody cares about is entertaining? how much did Fonzie pay you? If you find braindead gameplay enjoyable then good for you, but the whole point of games is doing some sort of mental recreation through creative mechanics and problem solving, that's big part of what makes it fun, not just the pretty colors.

[Pain for Fun]

Does anyone know if a Sega - Genesis Model 1 VA6 revision NTSC-US console or Sega - Genesis Model 3 VA2 revision NTSC-US console can run the game Paprium? I will list the serial numbers if needed for reference of these two consoles.

[Goati]

Does anyone know if a Sega - Genesis Model 1 VA6 revision NTSC-US console or Sega - Genesis Model 3 VA2 revision NTSC-US console can run the game Paprium? I will list the serial numbers if needed for reference of these two consoles.

It's known to have issues with VA6 and wouldn't work on my own VA6, either way there should be a thread somewhere

[Mask of Destiny]

Does anyone know if a Sega - Genesis Model 1 VA6 revision NTSC-US console or Sega - Genesis Model 3 VA2 revision NTSC-US console can run the game Paprium? I will list the serial numbers if needed for reference of these two consoles.

Some VA6 consoles work and some don't. If it doesn't work on yours, you may be able to get it to work by attaching a Sega CD or 32X. The game works on a Genesis 3 VA2, but you'll need to select the option to use the YM2612 DAC for audio samples as the cartridge audio lines are not connected on that model.

It's known to have issues with VA6 and wouldn't work on my own VA6, either way there should be a thread somewhere

There was a thread, but it got merged into this one

[Devil N]

What is the issue with the sound on PAPRIUM on a NOMAD? I keep reading about compatibility issues but am not clear on it.

The Nomad doesn't have the cartridge slot connections required to send analog audio from the cartridge and mix it with its own audio. As the Nomad cannot be hooked up to something like a Sega CD, it made sense to leave out those connections and same some money on the board designs. Paprium relies on those connections however to send audio from the Datenmeister DAC to the console. So for the Nomad there is a fallback: the game can stream its custom audio to the console digitally via the data bus, and have the Z80 processor pump that through the YM2612's DAC instead. However due to limitations of the data bus, the Z80's speed and/or the need to keep resources free for other tasks, this fallback produces noticeably lower audio quality.

In a nutshell: the Nomad is 100% compatible with the game, but it has to sacrifice some quality for all of the game's features to work.

[molasar]

i mean, is the game has a lot of stages, endings and secrets, but an average gameplay (which is the most important thing in a videogame) ...

What rating criteria system do you use for gameplay? Mine, yours or someone else's?