Paprium: The Official Thread Mk 2

[chilled]

Your posts are formative Sega-Jorge so thanks, but anyway, if that's so, why bother trying to make something more than vectorized hitboxes then? Galsia could have been 2-3 changing-color coded rectangles and gameplay would be 100% the same (also SoR would have taken less space than Columns and the benefit per cart would have been higher, considering flash shortage at that time)

Also what Devil N maybe implied about this possibly actually not really being a beat'em up in the end, very interesting and I think some of the mid/long term analisys around the game could well tend a bit towards that. There's a frigging map like this was Phantasy Star or some shit.

[Ryoandr]

Well, don't know what to tell you. Of the five systems I own (I also have a second Model 2 PAL MK1631-50 without a mod that works just as fine though I don't know it's motherboard variant), the original V0 and ( edit: APOLOGIES: I had another look inside, and apparently it's a V6, not a V0!) is the only one that hangs. I've never had any problem with that console, and I've actually owned that one since 1989. (I've kept it in storage for the last few years though, so maybe something went iffy in the meantime? Then again, I wouldn't know what, because it plays regular compatible games just fine).

/edit: BTW, the Watermelon FAQ for Paprium has this to say about compatibility issues: the game wouldn't work on "Model1 Japanese systems with serial A10xxxxxx". However, mine actually has the serial no. A00018641. Still hangs, though.

That's weird that a launch console with a low serial would have a VA6. A case swap occured at some point.

[Sarge]

Okay, more testing. I couldn't get my two 32X systems to work, though! One would function correctly as a passthrough... but only with the MED and Strider cart. Other games showed the TMSS screen and then black-screened, including Paprium. I really need to sort out what's wrong with them. The weird Genesis behavior might also be the reason I've gotten freezing issues with games like Knuckles Chaotix.

Of the stuff I could test:

Model No. 1601, serial 31X60840. FCC ID: FJ8USASEGA. This one has the "High-Definition Graphics" imprint on the top. Works correctly, both with and without Model 2 Sega CD.
Model No. 1601, serial 320079524. FCC ID: FJ8USASEGA. Same as original VA6 I posted. Works with Sega CD, otherwise no.
Model No. 1601, serial 020726496. FCC ID: FJ8USASEGA. Ditto, works with Sega CD, otherwise no.
Model No. MK-1631, serial 040328178. FCC ID: FJ8MD2SEGA. Model 2 Genesis works fine as standalone. Didn't test with Sega CD, but I suspect the same there.

[SEGA-Jorge]

Your posts are formative Sega-Jorge so thanks, but anyway, if that's so, why bother trying to make something more than vectorized hitboxes then? Galsia could have been 2-3 changing-color coded rectangles and gameplay would be 100% the same (also SoR would have taken less space than Columns and the benefit per cart would have been higher, considering flash shortage at that time)

Also what Devil N maybe implied about this possibly actually not really being a beat'em up in the end, very interesting and I think some of the mid/long term analisys around the game could well tend a bit towards that. There's a frigging map like this was Phantasy Star or some shit.

The point isn't that aesthetics aren't important at all, it's that it's the least of the concern. A good beat em up is good regardless of looks. You can get past the aesthetics, if the game play is good, rewarding, engaging, and expressive. You can't really get much if the game is just good looking.

That's not to say Paprium is devoid of any quality. It's more of a matter of the effort being way skewed towards aesthetics and presentation, and less on game play, and this is something that I addressed right when the game was being announced. I said that stringing together combat segments in non-descript locations doesn't really work if the combat itself isn't really engaging. But great gameplay coupled with great aesthetics and great sound really make a game stand the test of time. Some of the beat em ups that are most well respected are as a result of a strong combination of all these elements, but there are no well-regarded beat em ups that don't have, in some part, strong design, and that goes for Konami stuff as well, which were more about pacing and the ebb and flow of their combat sequences. They were simpler to play, but much more tightly paced and designed.

Ultimately, if the conversation is going to be about what Paprium does well that is not beat 'em up related, then I am good with that, I don't have to waste my time. I personally don't care about a beat 'em up that isn't trying to be a good beat 'em up, first and foremost. That's why I signed up, to play a good beat 'em up.

I'll be the first to say that I will be really hard on this game, because the tone going into the project was so matter of fact. They were certain that the how's and why's of beat 'em ups were not a major concern, and I assured them, early on, this was a shortsighted way to go about making this type of game. To WM's credit, they seem to have leaned heavily on the Original Mode content, and that might be the best thing to have done, as the combat is really limited.

[zborgerd]

Well, I just played a couple games of the Arcade mode, and I can say definitively, this is not doing it for me. I can see what people might enjoy, and I'm happy people are enjoying themselves, but I'm not really impressed with the gameplay. It's technically really impressive. What Luis and Fonzie and whomever was left to help out, were able to achieve is really commendable. I will keep playing it and seeing what I get, but so far, the game just feels really squishy. Controls are overlapping too much, moves lack impact, enemies are too spongy, AI is questionable, (I'm playing on the hardest difficulty) and the things the player can do really don't do much to impress upon the player what moves work with what enemies, etc. It's just really blah.

That being said, the movement, look, sound, all seems to be there. There is no denying the quality of the package in it's entirety.

People saying this is about as good as SOR4 are seriously of questionable taste. Just putting that out there.

I think you have to actually unlock the hardest difficulty. At least that's what someone on YouTube has indicated.

[otobo]

I had my first play with it at last; I couldn't agree more on the arcade mode, it's probably not the proper mode to play the game in. I also noticed that a lot of the nicer-looking levels aren't even in that mode.
I didn't like some of the later palette swaps making human characters green-gray-ish. Aside from that, I'm pretty satisfied as beat'em'ups go. I haven't played all of them, not even SOR4 yet, but I find the moveset good, at least on a par with SOR1 in variety. Button mashing is definitely tempting, but finding other ways to win is up to you. Another thing I don't like is not seeing the damage on the bosses' blue health bar as you can in SOR2. I can't wait to see more of the game and find out all it has to offer though.

I agree with Chilled on the number of buttons used which can become confusing over 3 for that type of game. I think I will prefer using a 3-button controller and button-D-pad/stick combinations. Speaking of which, the game didn't recognise my Fighter Stick MD-6. I will check that with a 3-button Monster Joystick I got myself to assemble this Christmas.

[SEGA-Jorge]

I think you have to actually unlock the hardest difficulty. At least that's what someone on YouTube has indicated.

I'm playing on the hardest difficulty available. But it's a non-issue. The game should feel good and play well regardless of difficulty settings. This being said, if you're telling me that the game suddenly stops being Paprium on this unlockable difficulty, I'm all for that...

[SEGA-Jorge]

I had my first play with it at last; I couldn't agree more on the arcade mode, it's probably not the proper mode to play the game in. I also noticed that a lot of the nicer-looking levels aren't even in that mode.
I didn't like some of the later palette swaps making human characters green-gray-ish. Aside from that, I'm pretty satisfied as beat'em'ups go. I haven't played all of them, not even SOR4 yet, but I find the moveset good, at least on a par with SOR1 in variety. Button mashing is definitely tempting, but finding other ways to win is up to you. Another thing I don't like is not seeing the damage on the bosses' blue health bar as you can in SOR2. I can't wait to see more of the game and find out all it has to offer though.

I agree with Chilled on the number of buttons used which can become confusing over 3 for that type of game. I think I will prefer using a 3-button controller and button-D-pad/stick combinations. Speaking of which, the game didn't recognise my Fighter Stick MD-6. I will check that with a 3-button Monster Joystick I got myself to assemble this Christmas.

Ug, the Genesis needs a proper arcade stick bad. I think the Grand Stick III looks pretty good, and I'd be willing to grab one of those, if the reviews are good. Not digging the curved plate build, but if it's solid, that's all that matters.

[Barone]

Model No. 1601, serial 320079524. FCC ID: FJ8USASEGA. Same as original VA6 I posted. Works with Sega CD, otherwise no.
Model No. 1601, serial 020726496. FCC ID: FJ8USASEGA. Ditto, works with Sega CD, otherwise no.

Awesome contributions, Sarge! Rep given.

So, to summarize:
- Mega Drive units, be it MD1 or MD2, which would freeze at Paprium's copyright screen will boot and run the game normally if a Sega CD is connect to their expansion slot.
- The Sega CD does NOT need to be powered on to fix the issue.
- Given that, I assume that all the switched off Sega CD is doing is grounding those expansion slot pins when its connected to the Mega Drive.

Additional info provided later by CrossBow and Sarge:
- Having a 32X attached fixed the issue with his VA6 as well. To be checked with other models but it could be another way to workaround the problem.
However, simulating the attachment of a 32X is a far more difficulty proposal, so the "fake Sega CD fix" is still the best route to try IMO.


Suggestion to those facing the same issue, which don't have a Sega CD and with at least minimal electronics understanding:
- Try to ground the expansion ports and see if it fixes the issue.

I'd bet you don't need to ground all the pins, maybe just the right one would be enough.
It's a trial and error process that could bring a very good outcome.

[CrossBow]

I need to add something else. My model 1 va6 that won't boot the game without the SegaCD will also work if I have the 32x attached and NOT the SegaCD. So on that va6 the game will boot if I have it attached to the SegaCD or with the 32x attached. I think it is a power issue somehow but not sure why the SegaCD or 32x would matter. I did have them plugged in when I tested, maybe I should pull their power cords and see what happens.

[Barone]

The routines that check if add-ons are connected are probably executed at that copyright screen.
Having one of them plugged on the MD might affect the branching of the code execution after that and bypass the problematic part.

Another test to execute (suggestion):
- Having passed the copyright screen with an switched off Sega CD connected, carefully remove the Sega CD from the expansion slot and see if the game keeps running fine.
- If yes, it would reinforce the theory that all this one bug is about is the hardware bootup sequence which is likely being executed at the copyright screen.

[SEGA-Jorge]

The blue pill mode feels so damn under-designed. It's such a garbage trade off. If you want a crowd control option, you have to increase your dependency on the drug, and it gives you less options when you're using it. It should have been a damage buff across the board, given you the ability to juggle enemies, and mapped the A button to that special move so it allowed you to use it in combination with your powered up normals. As it is, the blue pill mode is like a desperation mode that just unlocks one move for x amount of time.

If they wanted to stack pills, (you can take more than 1 pill at a time right now, I don't know what, if any affect that has, as WM doesn't tell the player anything...) They should have had the pill stacking unlock blue pill powers as you take more pills. 1 for powered up moves and the new special move, 2 for increased speed and juggles, 3 for all the above + super armor. But stacking pills speeds up and increases addiction value.

Better yet, they should have have drugs in general, and combined drug colors for specific effects/powers/moves, etc. They could have done a lot with the idea. Oh well, we'll see how this all plays out.

[axel]

The routines that check if add-ons are connected are probably executed at that copyright screen.
Having one of them plugged on the MD might affect the branching of the code execution after that and bypass the problematic part.

Another test to execute:
- Having passed the copyright screen with an switched off Sega CD connected, carefully remove the Sega CD from the expansion slot and see if the game keeps running fine.
- If yes, it would reinforce the theory that all this one bug is about is the hardware bootup sequence which is likely being executed at the copyright screen.

Wasn't this the situation with the 32X when it was released, some of the units required a bus termination dongle on the Sega CD port?

If that's the issue WM should have figured this out and offered a free connector to anyone who needed it.

[Barone]

Wasn't this the situation with the 32X when it was released, some of the units required a bus termination dongle on the Sega CD port?

If that's the issue WM should have figured this out and offered a free connector to anyone who needed it.

I could go on and on talking about which tests, bug fixes, workaround info and customer service WM should have provided.
But for people outside Europe and US, options such sending cartridges to be fixed and other pie-in-the-sky scenarios will not be feasible anyway (costs, risk of package loss and damages, taxes, etc).

So, IMHO, best case realistic scenario for the community is to find some dirty cheap Mega Drive mod that we can come up with, create a tutorial for and share with everyone.

[sengoku 2]

What are your best bta, sega-jorge ?
Cps 1 and 2 bta ?
Sor serie ?
Pgm bta ?
Konami bta, golden axe death adder, undercover cops, denjin makai 2, new zero team etc...

I'm pretty sure that denjin makai 2 matches yours tastes because his gameplay is one of the most complete.