Tomb Raider was over rated

[Olls]

-snip-
Some classic quotes from Dave Halverson-
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Wow, we should take lessons from this guy on how to be a proper fanboy.
Amazing quotes!

[Black_Tiger]

Wow, we should take lessons from this guy on how to be a proper fanboy.
Amazing quotes!

He's got nothing on Nick Rox.

[kool kitty89]

The Mystique used its own chipset that was supposedly faster than the shit heap known as the Virge, but had a somewhat weak feature set IIRC. It was also significantly slower than the Voodoo 1.

Ah OK, a quick search would have answered that (should have done that rather than making the assumption . . . ).

I wonder how it compared to ATi's original RAGE chipset, which itself was supposedly a fair bit better (or at least well balanced) than ViRGE -and had MPEG-1 acceleration. (wiki references the Mistique being from 1997, but that seems a little late, 2 years later than the introduction of ViRGE -namely in the Diamond 3D cards, RAGE, or NV-1 -namely in Diamond's EDGE card)

AFAIK this isn't quite right. From what I remember, and from everything I can find, it did support 3D acceleration, and had a Direct3D driver, but was missing a hell of a lot of features that it was really taken for granted that a 3D accelerator would have. Bilinear filtering, mip mapping, alpha blending? Not on the Mystique.

That was my impression too. Powerful 2D GUI-oriented acceleration along with basic 3D support. (like a number of other early total graphics solutions at the time -ie rather than piggyback cards like the VooDoo)

If you wanted PSX level 3D (or better -higher framerate and/or resolution), it could still be a good option. (even ViRGE could push highcolor unfiltered 3D faster than a 256 color software renderer at the time)

Except the PSX DID do alpha blending for translucency effects, so 3D cards forcing simple dithered transparency effects would be behind the PSX in that respect. (not sure how the original RAGE card compared for feature set -it was one of the very first 3D cards too, but apparently the best of that first wave of consumer multimedia 3D cards in 1995 -and also the only one of the 3 chipsets introduced in '95 to be extended in a long line of successful products)

Black_Tiger, thank you for the scans. Having played all three versions of Tomb Raider recently I can not see any reason to call only one version "godly" to be sure.

Certainly, regardless of the Saturn version having shortcomings, it's certainly not night and day compared to the PSX. (it would be night and day compared to the PC game with acceleration on a high-end PC with a VooDoo card -or maybe a RAGE II, which I think was out in '96)

Actually, I'd probably take the Saturn version due to the controller. (even the model 1 controller is a lot more comfortable -at least for me- than the PSX pad -the D-pad on the model 1 controller is actually far more comfortable than it looks)

[Mr Nuts]

I have been gaming since 1983 and i would say of all the games i have ever played Tomb Raider possibly had the biggest impact on me as it was trully ground breaking for the day,adventure games would never be the same again thanks to TR.The world in which you explored actually looked natural no more 10x10 square corridors like Dungeon Master you had free roam and the puzzle element was just right,the music is unforgettable and still quite moving today.
Sure some Tomb Raiders had some issues with camera angles and save points but it just added to the challenge for me,despite being a big fan the only TR i have not played i think is Angel Of Darkness on Ps2 .

[Black_Tiger]

I love Mario 64, but the camera control and the crappy N64 pads almost ruin it. Every 3D game should have had full camera control like Tomb Raider or the modern current twin stick standard. I'm also not a fan of analog control in general. Thankfully, the DS has a version if Mario 64 that fixed those issues.

[Chilly Willy]

I love Mario 64, but the camera control and the crappy N64 pads almost ruin it. Every 3D game should have had full camera control like Tomb Raider or the modern current twin stick standard.

This part I agree with... not so much the part about not liking analog sticks.

[StarMist]

Originally Posted by sheath

On TR, I really don't see how the PS version is altogether better graphically, but I wanted to know why you were saying that the Saturn game has worse controls. Having found the game totally playable even on a laptop keyboard, I really haven't noticed a difference in gameplay between versions.

Not altogether better graphically. As I said the SS advantages are (1) higher colour: her outfit looks better and it gives the illusion of her having more contour ... if you're into scoping out vg chicks; (2) no seaming; (3) better draw in some instances, the most outstanding being the Colosseum's arena where it's at least 3x if not 5x or 6x the PS, so Lara can actually see whom she's shooting at in the firefight with Pierre, or where those bloodthirsty ageless animals are down below.

PS graphical advantages = (1) overall cleanness: Lara's far smoother. I was never keen on the babe factor so don't read it that way, only one does observe her the whole game long and on the PS she's quite impressive. (1a) On PS her hair is red and stable, on SS dark brown/blackish and unstable meaning that it flickers when seen overhead (when she's grappling across a ledge) giving her the appearance of a bald spot. (1b) Textures are stable: they look the same up close as they do from across the screen. Meaning it's easier to identify what one has already seen, where one has already been, when trying to determine where to go next. On SS this was a problem for me in the sphinx lv and Natla's Mines, those rock textures just became a mess from across the screen, I often couldn't see any depth at all; same goes for lvs 2 and 3 which were esp problematic because that's where one is learning to play the game.
(2) Brightness. The PS game is naturally lit better. This compounds everything in the above PP along with enhancing the aesthetics. On SS the gamma can be turned up but doing so makes it look awful and just a mite painful--and it's still not so helpful as the natural brightness of the PS version.
(3) Pop-through. This is the kind of stuff that doesn't count. Tiny differences are there in the PS's favour but they don't matter.

-- Music. I swear that for whatever reason the soundtrack is cued less on the Saturn version and the ambient tracks play shorter (dramatic tracks for boss fights &c are the same). This made a huge difference to me as I can't stand listening to nothing but heavy gunfire interspersed with dog whimpers and bat squeaks for hours on end.

Control. You might very well have got through it on a keyboard, Lara after all has tank controls.
Tomb Raider is simply made for the diagonals not to be touched. I wish they'd been taken into account so Lara could have pivoted, thus easing orienting her with switches, navigating foot-high steps, &c, but it wasn't to be. As it is any finger flirtation with a diagonal promises death or frustration. Step back for a running jump. Run. A slight curvature to your run? Lara misses the target platform and falls. It's as simple as that. You may well be handier with the controls and more patient than me but the simple fact is it's a liability for most players on SS. Even when it's not a matter of death/frustration (which pretty much amount to the same thing given infinite tries) TR gets very tiresome when every little movement is subject to error--this is a game where every little movement must be precise. Orienting Lara to work a switch/lever, open a lock, align herself for a running leap, align herself for a standing jump, align herself to pick up something...these are constant acts already cumbersome due to game's controls on any machine, exacerbating them justs wears on the player. What particularly annoyed me was trying to pull myself up on a ledge I'd jumped to and grappling over to its edge (ie getting an Up-Right or Up-Left on the pad instead of a straight Up): these are tense moments where I don't like to be made conscious of the mechanism needed to play them.

---Summary: TR's more frustrating to learn on SS but calling it unplayable or anything of the sort is beyond what I meant to imply. I did first play it substantially on SS since I largely avoided it during its epoch due to the obnoxious hype. [[ to clarify this: I got my Saturn well after my PS ]]. Re what seems to be the majority of the discussion in this thread yes it's superior to Mario 64, on Saturn included, though Mario 64 is decent and enjoyable in or with doses.

[QuickSciFi]

I wonder who's responsible for reviving this old thread...

[NeoZeedeater]

I just want to add that from the perspective of the current gen it's amazing that games like Tomb Raider 1 could once be mainstream, i.e. action-adventure games without constant shooting and also an extreme lack of handholding. You had to survive on exploration and item rationing. Nowadays many gamers consider it a design flaw if they aren't told exactly where to go.

[Baloo]

I wonder who's responsible for reviving this old thread...

Nothing wrong with bumping old threads. I think it actually stimulates a lot of new conversation, and cuts down on the clutter so people don't complain "Oh, we've seen this thread before, blah blah blah"

[sheath]

Not altogether better graphically. As I said the SS advantages are (1) higher colour: her outfit looks better and it gives the illusion of her having more contour ... if you're into scoping out vg chicks; (2) no seaming; (3) better draw in some instances, the most outstanding being the Colosseum's arena where it's at least 3x if not 5x or 6x the PS, so Lara can actually see whom she's shooting at in the firefight with Pierre, or where those bloodthirsty ageless animals are down below.

Thanks for posting this here, it makes it a lot easier to track comments about the game(s) for a follow up video. I'm going to have to get to the Colosseum Arena to see what you are talking about, the only place at the beginning of the game with a longer draw distance on the Saturn is in Lara's house in the "gymnasium". It's interesting that you say Lara's outfit looks better in the Saturn version, I always thought this but actually every other person I've talked to seem to see something else entirely.

PS graphical advantages = (1) overall cleanness: Lara's far smoother. I was never keen on the babe factor so don't read it that way, only one does observe her the whole game long and on the PS she's quite impressive. (1a) On PS her hair is red and stable, on SS dark brown/blackish and unstable meaning that it flickers when seen overhead (when she's grappling across a ledge) giving her the appearance of a bald spot. (1b) Textures are stable: they look the same up close as they do from across the screen. Meaning it's easier to identify what one has already seen, where one has already been, when trying to determine where to go next. On SS this was a problem for me in the sphinx lv and Natla's Mines, those rock textures just became a mess from across the screen, I often couldn't see any depth at all; same goes for lvs 2 and 3 which were esp problematic because that's where one is learning to play the game.
(2) Brightness. The PS game is naturally lit better. This compounds everything in the above PP along with enhancing the aesthetics. On SS the gamma can be turned up but doing so makes it look awful and just a mite painful--and it's still not so helpful as the natural brightness of the PS version.
(3) Pop-through. This is the kind of stuff that doesn't count. Tiny differences are there in the PS's favour but they don't matter.

The PS1 version is stretched vertically due to its weird resolution, that's why Lara looks "smoother" more than anything else. The Saturn game is a lot darker, I even adjusted the gamma in places in that video to show it isn't just gamma, it's the textures themselves. The Saturn also has two levels of texture quality, with the higher resolution textures popping in at a certain distance, this can be easily seen in far off high detail objects like the stone face in the first or second level. I don't think even the PC version in low detail mode does this, but I could be wrong about that. I'm not sure what you mean by Pop-through.

-- Music. I swear that for whatever reason the soundtrack is cued less on the Saturn version and the ambient tracks play shorter (dramatic tracks for boss fights &c are the same). This made a huge difference to me as I can't stand listening to nothing but heavy gunfire interspersed with dog whimpers and bat squeaks for hours on end.

I focused on the graphics the last time I played it, but I used the music cues to help me edit the video in some places, I didn't notice any differences. I'll have to go back and see, maybe later in the game there is more music in the PS1 version.

Control. You might very well have got through it on a keyboard, Lara after all has tank controls.
Tomb Raider is simply made for the diagonals not to be touched. I wish they'd been taken into account so Lara could have pivoted, thus easing orienting her with switches, navigating foot-high steps, &c, but it wasn't to be. As it is any finger flirtation with a diagonal promises death or frustration. Step back for a running jump. Run. A slight curvature to your run? Lara misses the target platform and falls. It's as simple as that. You may well be handier with the controls and more patient than me but the simple fact is it's a liability for most players on SS. Even when it's not a matter of death/frustration (which pretty much amount to the same thing given infinite tries) TR gets very tiresome when every little movement is subject to error--this is a game where every little movement must be precise. Orienting Lara to work a switch/lever, open a lock, align herself for a running leap, align herself for a standing jump, align herself to pick up something...these are constant acts already cumbersome due to game's controls on any machine, exacerbating them justs wears on the player. What particularly annoyed me was trying to pull myself up on a ledge I'd jumped to and grappling over to its edge (ie getting an Up-Right or Up-Left on the pad instead of a straight Up): these are tense moments where I don't like to be made conscious of the mechanism needed to play them.

I will have to concede that having only four directions to press is going to cause less confusion about the controls, but I didn't have any trouble holding straight up on the Saturn's dpad or even with the Hori joystick, in the Saturn or PC versions. That probably has more to do with my being more familiar with joysticks, and the Master System and Genesis control pads, by that point. I have trouble going from angles to straight directions in five frames in Virtua Fighter 2 than I do planning a jump or slide in Tomb Raider.

It is also interesting that you point out the tank like controls, Tomb Raider and Virtual On are awesome examples of digitally controlled fully 3D games with a lot of fluid action and precision required. I wish there were more games like this as they, and the fact that Mario 64 can be played with a digital pad no problem, are great examples of digital controls working fine in 3D games.

---Summary: TR's more frustrating to learn on SS but calling it unplayable or anything of the sort is beyond what I meant to imply. I did first play it substantially on SS since I largely avoided it during its epoch due to the obnoxious hype. [[ to clarify this: I got my Saturn well after my PS ]]. Re what seems to be the majority of the discussion in this thread yes it's superior to Mario 64, on Saturn included, though Mario 64 is decent and enjoyable in or with doses.

I think Tomb Raider is better than Mario 64 by a mile, but Prince of Persia in 3D is a lot more interesting to me than pudgy castrated cartoon characters.

[StarMist]

The PS1 version is stretched vertically due to its weird resolution, that's why Lara looks "smoother" more than anything else. The Saturn game is a lot darker, I even adjusted the gamma in places in that video to show it isn't just gamma, it's the textures themselves. The Saturn also has two levels of texture quality, with the higher resolution textures popping in at a certain distance, this can be easily seen in far off high detail objects like the stone face in the first or second level. I don't think even the PC version in low detail mode does this, but I could be wrong about that. I'm not sure what you mean by Pop-through.

After posting my comment I read the last forty odd entries here...Black Tiger was the only person who mentioned the gamma and it apparently didn't bother him. I find the gamma brightening has a harsh resiny tone.
By 'pop-through' I meant moving polygons pushing through more or less static ones, such as is often seen during holds or throws in 3D fighting games. In TR's case this occurs during fights with animals and when she pushes blocks. The difference is very small though, iirc it's only one or two movements within her block pushing animation that looked worse--I do like that animation quite a bit though.

It is also interesting that you point out the tank like controls, Tomb Raider and Virtual On are awesome examples of digitally controlled fully 3D games with a lot of fluid action and precision required. I wish there were more games like this as they, and the fact that Mario 64 can be played with a digital pad no problem, are great examples of digital controls working fine in 3D games.

Analogue's an overrated standard. Coincidentally what caused me bring up TR in the first place a while ago now was my playing Zelda Twilight Princess and wishing it controlled or played half so well as TR.

I think Tomb Raider is better than Mario 64 by a mile, but Prince of Persia in 3D is a lot more interesting to me than pudgy castrated cartoon characters.

Mario 64 is a game I find it trite to beat up on. It's not wonderful by any means but it has its merits. Lara Pontoon-Chest Croft isn't all that great a character design either but her games' general tautness is to her advantage whilst Mario's mansion feels rather gaseous after all these years.

[QuickSciFi]

Nothing wrong with bumping old threads. I think it actually stimulates a lot of new conversation, and cuts down on the clutter so people don't complain "Oh, we've seen this thread before, blah blah blah"

I know . You know I was the one that used to bump old threads all the time. I actually agree with that philosophy.

[j_factor]

I know . You know I was the one that used to bump old threads all the time. I actually agree with that philosophy.

Nothing wrong with bumping old threads, if you're actually contributing to the topic. Bumping an old thread to say "yup" or "lol" is retarded.

[sheath]

Sorry, I saw this before and neglected to reply. Thread subscribed to.

After posting my comment I read the last forty odd entries here...Black Tiger was the only person who mentioned the gamma and it apparently didn't bother him. I find the gamma brightening has a harsh resiny tone.
By 'pop-through' I meant moving polygons pushing through more or less static ones, such as is often seen during holds or throws in 3D fighting games. In TR's case this occurs during fights with animals and when she pushes blocks. The difference is very small though, iirc it's only one or two movements within her block pushing animation that looked worse--I do like that animation quite a bit though.

Oh, yeah, I've always called this clipping. As I understand it is an artifact of the lack of perspective correction in the hardware and would need relatively hardware intensive software workarounds to avoid. Or it's just sloppy coding that ignored beta test complaints.

As for the gamma adjustment, I found that in the Saturn version it makes black into grey far to quickly, I tend to leave it at the default setting because of this. I checked in the first level in several places and increasing the gamma did not make more texture or background detail visible, it just lowered the blackness of black.

I was trained by the Video Essentials TV settings DVD to lower the black level to the point where black is totally black but no details are obscured on any given set. That is of course with the sharpness setting turned down on SD sets and with color, contrast and tint adjustments that help a ton. I haven't found this DVD all that useful on my HD set, and I had to avoid the Xbox 360's DVD player because of its automatic black adjustments carried over from Windows Media Player. I adjusted it once with that and then tried to play some Genesis and the screen was almost totally dark even though the 360 looked great.

Analogue's an overrated standard. Coincidentally what caused me bring up TR in the first place a while ago now was my playing Zelda Twilight Princess and wishing it controlled or played half so well as TR.

Mario 64 is a game I find it trite to beat up on. It's not wonderful by any means but it has its merits. Lara Pontoon-Chest Croft isn't all that great a character design either but her games' general tautness is to her advantage whilst Mario's mansion feels rather gaseous after all these years.

Yes, I agree. I ended up trading Twilight Princess on Gamecube because it, like all of the 3D Zeldas, just bored the snot out of me. It's odd too, because technically the Soul Reaver games could be called a Zelda 64 clone and I love playing them. I think Soul Reaver's pacing is a bit better, and I know the character design and story is a million times a million times improved. But I had played Tomb Raider before Mario 64 and Tomb Raider II way before Zelda 64. I'm glad you mentioned this, because I think I do prefer the tank controls plus block based movements in Tomb Raider over the "Analog" controls of Mario 64 or the lock on controls of Zelda 64. Come to think of it, the gun fights in Tomb Raider are all lock-on based as well. Hmmn.