No excuse for Sonic on the Saturn...

[Aarzak]

The Saturn's hardware far outclasses the Neo Geo's and at a much better price. The Saturn ports of SNK games are so sought after nowadays because they are as close toarcade perfect and come closest to the Neo Geo versions of said games. The Saturn SNK ports remain the only way to faithfully play SNK games without getting a Neo Geo. Even modern SNK ports are completely butchered (due to SNK's almost total ineptitude I might add. No company on the face of the earth is so adept at destroying itself and ruining ports of its own franchises, other than perhaps the modern incarnation of Sega...and atari--they were the biggest morons when it came to handling their own franchises).

The saturn versions of these games are missing some animations and have a tad more slowdown than their Neo Geo counterparts. But the cartridge based system has an advantage in speed when you can pack a shitload of RAM into a cartridge the size of a modern hard drive.

The Saturn versions of Metal Slug, King of Fighters etc. are about as arcade perfect as it gets. Problem is that most of these games stayed in the land of the rising sun and never made it here. The Saturn's ability to basically plug in 4mb of RAM into it made it a far far more powerful 2-D/arcade powerhouse than the playstation. It was a very capable home arcade system in many ways.

Problem was, in 1995-1998 most people didn't want to play arcade games at home, they wanted to play lame ass games like croc, mario 64, Bug (which I really can't stand...Rayman, Astal both look 100 times better than Bug or Croc).

one overriding childhood reason for owning a Saturn was having an arcade perfect version of Mortal Kombat II. Unfortunately (and no fault of the Sega Saturn or Sega) the 32-bit home ports of MK II (even on the PSx) sucked and sucks balls. The 16-bit home versions dominate that...bastards.

Most of the PS2 Neo Geo compilations would like to have a word with you. Yeah, there have been some clunkers, but the majority of these compilations (Fatal Fury Volumes 1 & 2, Art of Fighting, World Heroes, KoF Orochi Saga) and their ports completely blow away every previous port and have become THE definitive home ports of their respective games save for owning a Neo Geo.

[Benjamin]

Nah, Scrapbrain hated speed and momentum and wanted them both to die. That's why there were bottomless pits and traps every few feet.

You know, you're right. I haven't played Scrap Brain in years, but I remember spinning around the gears really fast, out running bombs and pylons, and quickly jumping from spinning platform to the next... but a YouTube video reminded me otherwise. I mean, I even forgot Act 3 was back in Labyrinth Zone. It does seem to be about the same as Marble Garden in design/speed to me. The game's stages do appear to alternate between fast and slow I suppose so that people would appreciate the racing and puzzle elements without them feeling too repetitive.

[Timstuff]

A small group of Sega of America empoyees (no kidding, it was only like 5 guys) were working on a 3D Sonic game for the Saturn, but unfortunately due to the feudal nature of Sega's corporate structure the project ultimately fell apart. Basically, Sega had a tiny group of inexperienced but highly talented programmers, and gave them the task of creating the Sega Saturn's flagship title. As horrible an idea as that was, the game designers came up with a very clever and innovative title that compensated for the Saturn's poor 3D capabilities by using a unique "fish eye" camera angle, 2D rendered characters, and tiny "planetoid" levels over 10 years before Mario was galaxy trotting.






Sega obviously had something special on their hands, but unfortunataly, as uplifting as it would have been to say that a tiny group of underdogs managed to make a great Sonic game and saved the Sega Saturn, history had other plans. Studio politics aside, the point is that Sega was constantly making the team restart the project, because some big wig saw the game and didn't like it. Deadlines were constantly being missed, and the project's lead programmer actually had to leave because he was putting his health at serious risk (he actually had a bed inside the computer lab so that he could get more work done). Understaffed, underfunded, overworked, and with the fate of Sega's killer app lying in their hands, it should be no surprise that the project fell apart and got canceled. Perhaps if Sega hadn't been a bunch of dip sticks, the Sega Saturn would have actually had a breakthrough hit.

[MrMatthews]

The Donkey Kong Country 2 was released in late 1995 yet still sold well, so why couldn't Sega have generate as much hype around a 2D Sonic on the Saturn back in late 1995 and steal Donkey Kong Country 2's thunder?

Here are two reasons:

The DKC series drew attention largely because of the fact that its graphics were produced for a 16-bit system.

Also, because of how late it came out in the SNES's life, everyone already had the system. Its a lot easier to fork out $60 for a game than it is for a brand new system AND a game.

[retrospiel]

A small group of Sega of America empoyees (no kidding, it was only like 5 guys) were working on a 3D Sonic game for the Saturn, but unfortunately due to the feudal nature of Sega's corporate structure the project ultimately fell apart. Basically, Sega had a tiny group of inexperienced but highly talented programmers, and gave them the task of creating the Sega Saturn's flagship title. As horrible an idea as that was, the game designers came up with a very clever and innovative title that compensated for the Saturn's poor 3D capabilities by using a unique "fish eye" camera angle, 2D rendered characters, and tiny "planetoid" levels over 10 years before Mario was galaxy trotting.

Sega obviously had something special on their hands, but unfortunataly, as uplifting as it would have been to say that a tiny group of underdogs managed to make a great Sonic game and saved the Sega Saturn, history had other plans. Studio politics aside, the point is that Sega was constantly making the team restart the project, because some big wig saw the game and didn't like it. Deadlines were constantly being missed, and the project's lead programmer actually had to leave because he was putting his health at serious risk (he actually had a bed inside the computer lab so that he could get more work done). Understaffed, underfunded, overworked, and with the fate of Sega's killer app lying in their hands, it should be no surprise that the project fell apart and got canceled. Perhaps if Sega hadn't been a bunch of dip sticks, the Sega Saturn would have actually had a breakthrough hit.

It's the old "one hand doesn't what the other does" issue that Sega fought with during their entire existence: I can imagine that Yuji Naka was pretty pissed after SOA/SOE released Sonic 3D Blast: Flicky's Island without his knowledge nor approval - and after Knuckles Chaotix was decided to be released exclusively for 32X - to push this horrible excuse for a still-born hardware... Seeing his baby mistreated like that must have hurt big-time.

When SOA then showed him the first beta of Sonic X-treme using the Nights engine, he probably exploded, as it looked like utter shit:

http://www.dcemu.co.uk/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=65208

Via ASSEMblergames

ASSEMbler of ASSEMblergames has released video footage of the unreleased Sega Saturn game: Sonic X-treme. This version is running off the NiGHTS game engine, which was used by Sega of America.

This is a video of the concept "nights" version of Sonic Xtreme for Sega
Saturn. Looking to produce a concept for a 3D sonic, a Sega USA team
used the nights engine to produce a concept for demonstration. Upon
hearing about the use of their engine, the Japanese team had a fit and
forced the adoption of a different engine, the so called "fish eye" version
that was later canceled as unworkable.

This bickering lead to the cancellation of the only "Killer App" for Sega Saturn.

This video is from the only copy of the game in existence, which sold for
nearly $3000 in 2006.

- Imagine Nintendo would have given Mario and Zelda to some third-parties to develop the sequels to Mario World and A Link to the Past*. I think Miyamoto would be pissed.


*Actually, they did license both Mario and Zelda to Mindscape resp. Philips when it seemed that Sega won the 16-bit console wars in 1992.

[Rusty Venture]

Nintendo did let Capcom (or one of their internal developers) do Oracle of Ages/Seasons. I have "Seasons", but it isn't as good as "Link's Awakening".

[Tanegashima]

Most of the PS2 Neo Geo compilations would like to have a word with you. Yeah, there have been some clunkers, but the majority of these compilations (Fatal Fury Volumes 1 & 2, Art of Fighting, World Heroes, KoF Orochi Saga) and their ports completely blow away every previous port and have become THE definitive home ports of their respective games save for owning a Neo Geo.

I'm just going on my experiences, with delayed controls, clunky controls many of the PS2 SNK ports I've played have really been duds.

But for all I know they have greatly improved...the newest system I have is a Saturn

I certainly won't deny that later PS2 ports are probably arcade perfect, but given my experience with later SNK ports that isn't always the case. Not graphically...but when it comes to their controls.

technically there are three 3D sonics on the Saturn:

Sonic R
Christmas Nights into Dreams where you can play the game as sonic---on the ground, no flying
Sonic Jam has the 3D mini game...

[Timstuff]

It's the old "one hand doesn't what the other does" issue that Sega fought with during their entire existence: I can imagine that Yuji Naka was pretty pissed after SOA/SOE released Sonic 3D Blast: Flicky's Island without his knowledge nor approval - and after Knuckles Chaotix was decided to be released exclusively for 32X - to push this horrible excuse for a still-born hardware... Seeing his baby mistreated like that must have hurt big-time.

When SOA then showed him the first beta of Sonic X-treme using the Nights engine, he probably exploded, as it looked like utter shit:

http://www.dcemu.co.uk/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=65208




- Imagine Nintendo would have given Mario and Zelda to some third-parties to develop the sequels to Mario World and A Link to the Past*. I think Miyamoto would be pissed.


*Actually, they did license both Mario and Zelda to Mindscape resp. Philips when it seemed that Sega won the 16-bit console wars in 1992.

The "Nights" version of Sonic Xtreme looked incredibly crappy, and it's probably for the best that it never saw the light of day. However, the "fish eye" version looked like something that could have been legitimately special, but unfortunately Sega didn't even realize what they had. It still retained most of the speed that the Sonic games were known for, ran smoothly, and most of all it was unique and unlike any 3D platformer on any other system. It's a terrible shame that the suits at Sega didn't like it, because from the videos it looks like the game made it quite far in development, and probably could have been released if only Sega had been willing to fund it another few months.

Say, that reminds me-- what do you think the odds are of Sega releasing Sonic Xtreme through Wii's virtual console or WiiWare, or a multi-game collection? Assuming they still have their hands on the original code, it's not too far fetched that they could throw a bit of spit shine on it and present it as "the lost Sonic game." I think fans would seriously dig getting to play a game that for ages they dreamed of playing but never got to. Even if it's not actually all that good, I think fans would seriously appreciate having such a rare piece of Sonic history preserved and / or restored. And on top of that, the game's technology is so primative by modern standards that it would probably be dirt cheap for Sega to have it finished. It's an easy way to rake in some extra $$$ that would make fans happy.

And what would be really awesome-- although I'm unsure of the feasability-- would be if there was some way for the game to be hacked and burned onto a CD for play on an actual Sega Saturn. Wishful thinking, sure, but boy oh boy what a wish it is...

[Psy]

Here are two reasons:

The DKC series drew attention largely because of the fact that its graphics were produced for a 16-bit system.

Also, because of how late it came out in the SNES's life, everyone already had the system. Its a lot easier to fork out $60 for a game than it is for a brand new system AND a game.

Yes but Mario 64 didn't come out till mid 1996 so Sega could have hyped a 2D Sonic for the Saturn in late 1995.

[Rusty Venture]

Say, that reminds me-- what do you think the odds are of Sega releasing Sonic Xtreme through Wii's virtual console or WiiWare, or a multi-game collection?

A snowball has a better chance on Mercury than Sega releasing that game.

[MrMatthews]

Yes but Mario 64 didn't come out till mid 1996 so Sega could have hyped a 2D Sonic for the Saturn in late 1995.

I don't see how Mario 64 fits into this discussion, but very well.

A full-fledged Mario title will probably ALWAYS outsell any other game. Why? Because Nintendo spaces them out, which increases demand for a series that, for the most part, has been incredibly well-recieved across the board.

Sega recognized a good thing when they had it, and proceeded to saturate the market in sonic titles. How much hype could they really have generated for a game that (and let's be honest here) was really just more of the same?

[Psy]

I don't see how Mario 64 fits into this discussion, but very well.

A full-fledged Mario title will probably ALWAYS outsell any other game. Why? Because Nintendo spaces them out, which increases demand for a series that, for the most part, has been incredibly well-recieved across the board.

Sega recognized a good thing when they had it, and proceeded to saturate the market in sonic titles. How much hype could they really have generated for a game that (and let's be honest here) was really just more of the same?

Before Mario 64 there really wasn't many 3D platforms worth mentioning.

Also a 2D Sonic game on the Saturn could have offered faster sections as the Saturn could scroll the background much vaster then Genesis. Also could have offered sections that is much more populated especially since the Saturn can easily mix 2D objects with 3D objects on a 2D plane, meaning you can have it so when Sonic smashes through a wooden box that the Saturn creates 3D wooden fragments each a object that can tumble showing all its sides without requiring sprite animation on it. With the Saturn Sega could done lots of tricks to 2.5 levels (narrow 3D levels, tracked to a 2D planes).

[MrMatthews]

Before Mario 64 there really wasn't many 3D platforms worth mentioning.

Also a 2D Sonic game on the Saturn could have offered faster sections as the Saturn could scroll the background much vaster then Genesis. Also could have offered sections that is much more populated especially since the Saturn can easily mix 2D objects with 3D objects on a 2D plane, meaning you can have it so when Sonic smashes through a wooden box that the Saturn creates 3D wooden fragments each a object that can tumble showing all its sides without requiring sprite animation on it. With the Saturn Sega could done lots of tricks to 2.5 levels (narrow 3D levels, tracked to a 2D planes).

First off, I certainly do agree with you. A 2.5D sonic game COULD have been cool. In fact, I think such a game would be infinitely better received today than the past several sonic games (and the questionable ones that are coming down the pipeline).

I wasn't trying to suggest that such a game couldn't have been good, but at the time there were just so many other sonic games between the sega's other systems that adding yet another game without genuine innovation probably would have been met with a resounding "meh"

Especially since the series has been on a gradual decline starting with Sonic 3