My 360 just Red ringed

[Jesse813]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember reading somewhere that developers EXPECT to lose money on their consoles - it's the software that allows them to recoup development costs and eventually turn a profit.

Microsoft and Sony might be losing Money on Hardware, but I'm pretty sure Nintendo is making a profit since the Wii is basically just a Gamecube in a better looking case with motion sensing thrown in.

[Psy]

Another article I read recently, I believe from the Wal Street Journal said that the Playstation 3 would have to last as long as both the Playstation 1 and 2 combined in order to break even on the system. Sony is still bleeding money, several sony execs hope simply to break even on the system after 10 years! They hope to BREAK EVEN after 10 years! When Sony's hope isn't even to turn a profit, that's bad...that's including software sales I might add. I know for a fact that several big shareholders want sony to close down it's video game section altogether. We'll see what happens. I mean, if Sony wants to compete for 10 years, Microsoft may just win in the end once they resolve all their issues.

Right now Nintendo is winning, not only does Nintendo have the profitable Wii but the profitable DS.

[Melf]

I Sony is losing too, but they are at least breaking even with the still strong PS2 sales and eventually the PS3 will catch on thanks to Blu Ray winning the high def DVD format wars and many users getting ancy about buying such a failure prone system as an XBOX 360.

I think Blu-Ray hasn't quite been the ace in the hole Sony thought it would be, and sales haven't exactly set the world on fire. In fact, they've pretty much sucked since the format war ended.

Despite Adams Media Research projecting back in June that 14.4 million US households would be able to play Blu-Ray movies by the end of the year, a consortium of movie studios and electronics manufacturers estimate that the actual figure is now likely to be closer to 10.5 million.

The consortium, known as the Digital Entertainment Group, specified last week that the user-base of Blu-Ray compatible devices would come mainly through PS3 sales, of which the consortium predicts will have 8 million US users before 2009. Research group Adams Media however estimated in June that over 10 million PS3s would be sold in the US by that time.

The price of Blu-Ray players are taking a considerable drop in America right now in the hope that units for $200 will encourage adoption of the format.

One member of the consortium, Sony Pictures Home Entertainment president David Bishop, said that “the only dark cloud is the economy" before adding that the PS3 sales in America remain on target and "show no slowdown.” Currently there are 5.7 million PS3s in US homes, with Sony expecting that figure to climb another 4-5 million before March. "We remain pretty confident that we'll meet our targets for the fiscal year," said a spokesperson for Sony Computer Entertainment America.

The panel also agreed that the format is very young, having just only just won the format battle with the Toshiba and Microsoft-backed HD-DVD format. DVD revenue continues to fall, dropping 6 percent through 2008.

Source.

The problem is that BR doesn't offer the intant WOW factor that the upgrade from VHS to DVD did, unless you have an HDTV and a BR player. Moreover, they're talking about players dropping to $200 NOW, when the economy is tanking? I see people in the mall buying regular DVD players all the time but hardly (if ever) see anyone with a BR player.

It's going to take longer than Sony expected for the BR market to mature, and considering that the PS3 has finished its second consecutive year in last place - something unimaginable for the brand - I think the company needs to stop counting on BR and get its shit in order. Where's Home? Why has it let all the big exclusives go the the 360?

[Nintega Grafx-16]

This red ring business is what is really keeping me from buying a 360....

[AD2101]

To me at least, the PS3 is that one chick that is okay looking in high school but 2 years later is a 10, while the 360 is that one chick that is pretty attractive but gets you sick if you go near her.

I think as long as the game developers and publishers don't bail on the PS3, Sony will be alright. They were definitely too ambitious this time around, but that really only works in the favor of PS3 owners when you think about it. Free online, upgradeable hard-drives, wi-fi out of the box, a BD player (doesn't help me but whatever), and really cheap when compared to what these things actually cost to make = great for anyone that took a chance on the PS3, not so much for Sony though.

As for Microsoft, you gotta start wondering if they're ever going to make money in the console business. They were already 4 billion in the hole walking into the 360, then sell the 360 at a loss, then spend at least a billion in console repairs. Good thing they're Microsoft, or I think any other company would have thrown in the towel by now.

[Psy]

As for Microsoft, you gotta start wondering if they're ever going to make money in the console business. They were already 4 billion in the hole walking into the 360, then sell the 360 at a loss, then spend at least a billion in console repairs. Good thing they're Microsoft, or I think any other company would have thrown in the towel by now.

Don't forget the growing lawsuits over discs scratched due to faulty drives in the XBox 360.

[gamevet]

we'll see, unless they're using screws this time, I doubt it.



it's not excessive heat, its just heat in general that isn't able to be dissipated. The heat sink over the GPU in the original configuration is seriously like 1/6 as tall as it should be. The heat sink on my Motorola G4 Mac back in 199X had a freakin mountain for a heat sink. Given the more sophisticated nature, it should actually be BIGGER than that to properly cool it. I'm not basing this on rough estimation either, I've actually taken a whole class dedicated to heat transfer and if you showed the heat sink to any engineer in that field the first words out of their mouth would probably be "you gotta be shittin me." Cooler running processors would definitely help, but you gotta replace the damn x-clamps too, those things are a joke.

Yeah, the heatsink is too small for the GPU, but the ventilation of the system is just as much to blame.

Here's an inside story, from an engineer that tested out the 360.

http://venturebeat.com/2008/09/05/xb...-console-woes/

Microsoft knew it had flawed machines, but it did not delay its launch because it believed the quality problems would subside over time. With each new machine, the company figured it would ride the “learning curve,” or continuously improve its production. Even though Microsoft’s leaders knew their quality wasn’t top notch, they did not ensure that resources were in place to handle returns and quickly debug bad consoles. There were plenty of warning signs, but the company chose to ignore them. The different parts of the business weren’t aligned.

But the evidence for the quality debacle was there to see even before Microsoft shipped any machines. In August, 2005, as Microsoft was gearing up production, an engineer raised a hand and said, “Stop. You have to shut down the line.” This wasn’t just a brief moment. The engineer spoke up repeatedly.

That engineer, who asked not to be identified, had deep experience in manufacturing. When production results were really off kilter, stopping a line and tracing a problem back to its roots was the answer. But the higher-ranking engineers, managers and executives chose to risk going forward. There wasn’t a universal backlash from the engineering ranks, according to one engineering source.

Nobody listened to that engineer — who spoke on condition of anonymity — apparently because console launches are always hurried affairs. Yields — the percentage of working products in a given batch of total products produced — generally start low. As the manufacturers conduct statistical analysis and tight controls on every step in assembly, they learn how to drive the yields up.

Still, the picture wasn’t pretty. The defect rate for the machines was an abysmal 68 percent at that point, according to several sources. That meant for every 100 machines that Microsoft’s contract manufacturers, Flextronics and Wistron, made at their factories in China, 68 didn’t work. At the recent dinner, Bach denied that there was a big concern about defects at that point in time.

There were plenty of warning signs. Early reports on the problems were myriad. In an Aug. 30, 2005 memo, the team reported overheating graphics chip, cracking heat sinks, cosmetic issues with the hard disk drive and the front of the box, under-performing graphics memory chips from Infineon (now Qimonda), a problem with the DVD drive, and other things. At that point, the contract manufacturers were behind schedule and had only built hundreds of units. They were supposed to have been in high gear, making thousands every week.

[The Sports Guy]

17daysoldier: I was just remembering what the guy on the phone told me. As long as my Xbox works, I dont care about anything besides being charged an arm and a leg.

[17daysolderthannes]

This is true most of the time, but there has never been a video game console that cost so much to develop, cost so much to manufacture and has been sold at such a gigantic loss.

Most of this type of hardware is sold at a very marginal loss or sold at cost. Sony pumped all of its profits from the PS2 into the PS3, and ran into problem after problem. Not to mention a very lackluster software library at the start. Microsoft is still killing sony in 3rd party software sales but Sony is catching up fast.

Sony's biggest problem now is, even if their new 40 gig system does sell at a profit (which they claim it might by March of 09) they still have over 3 billion dollars in losses they have to recoup. That's a hard road.

Selling a console at a 5-15% marginal loss is fine, especially when you have a strong software lineup to make up for it instantly. I mean the PS3 started at prices between $400-$600 and were losing between $250 and $300 per unit. That is a gigantic marginal loss, gigantic. That's nearly a 50% loss per system. It becomes very difficult to make up for a 40% and upwards marginal loss on software sales that probably only have around 10-15% profit margin. The math just doesn't work...remember...most of money paid for a video game goes to the retailer....

I think Blu-Ray hasn't quite been the ace in the hole Sony thought it would be, and sales haven't exactly set the world on fire. In fact, they've pretty much sucked since the format war ended.

Source.

The problem is that BR doesn't offer the intant WOW factor that the upgrade from VHS to DVD did, unless you have an HDTV and a BR player. Moreover, they're talking about players dropping to $200 NOW, when the economy is tanking? I see people in the mall buying regular DVD players all the time but hardly (if ever) see anyone with a BR player.

It's going to take longer than Sony expected for the BR market to mature, and considering that the PS3 has finished its second consecutive year in last place - something unimaginable for the brand - I think the company needs to stop counting on BR and get its shit in order. Where's Home? Why has it let all the big exclusives go the the 360?

All I have to say is: give it time. Sega's problem was always calling it quits before their systems even got a chance to get going (Sega CD lasted...what...3 years? 32X 6 months, Saturn 2 years, Dreamcast 2 years, you get the picture). Even the Genesis didn't get moving until 2 years had passed, when just about every other system was discontinued, and right where PS3 is now. It takes a little while for programmers to learn the ins and outs of a system and for people to take notice of what it has to offer. I see PS3 blowing up in a big way in the next 5 years or so along with Blu Ray. Sony designed its system with anticipation that in the next few years most people will have upgraded to high definition TVs and will want video games and DVDs that are capable of the fidelity to go with it. The key difference between Sega and Sony and the reason Sony is still in the game is because Sony knows: it takes a while for the success to come, if you pull the plug at the first sign of slow sales, you just kicked your own ass.

Microsoft and Sony might be losing Money on Hardware, but I'm pretty sure Nintendo is making a profit since the Wii is basically just a Gamecube in a better looking case with motion sensing thrown in.

I believe they make about $50 a console, it may be less, but they do make a profit, I am positive of that. I admire their decision to just make a competent and accessible console, but I detest how terrible their software is. My Wii collects dust, let me put it that way.

To me at least, the PS3 is that one chick that is okay looking in high school but 2 years later is a 10, while the 360 is that one chick that is pretty attractive but gets you sick if you go near her.

I think as long as the game developers and publishers don't bail on the PS3, Sony will be alright. They were definitely too ambitious this time around, but that really only works in the favor of PS3 owners when you think about it. Free online, upgradeable hard-drives, wi-fi out of the box, a BD player (doesn't help me but whatever), and really cheap when compared to what these things actually cost to make = great for anyone that took a chance on the PS3, not so much for Sony though.

As for Microsoft, you gotta start wondering if they're ever going to make money in the console business. They were already 4 billion in the hole walking into the 360, then sell the 360 at a loss, then spend at least a billion in console repairs. Good thing they're Microsoft, or I think any other company would have thrown in the towel by now.

good to see someone else gets it. I think Sony and Microsoft were over ambitious this time around. In my experience, when it comes to video game systems the system has to be $300 or less and the games have to be $50 or less. Any over that and people won't touch it. Happened to Saturn, happened to N64 (games wise, sure there were plenty of N64s, but most people only had 1-5 games for it), happened to 3DO, happened to CD-i, etc etc.

Yeah, the heatsink is too small for the GPU, but the ventilation of the system is just as much to blame.

Here's an inside story, from an engineer that tested out the 360.

http://venturebeat.com/2008/09/05/xb...-console-woes/

It's all terrible, I already read an article where an engineer analyzed the 360 heatsinks and confirmed everything I already thought: "Are you kidding me! can this thing even cool it at all!?" Without a proper heatsink, all the ventilation in the world won't help you. Shit, the ventilation holes in the metal interior case doesn't even line up with the outer plastic case's holes.

[gamevet]

It's all terrible, I already read an article where an engineer analyzed the 360 heatsinks and confirmed everything I already thought: "Are you kidding me! can this thing even cool it at all!?" Without a proper heatsink, all the ventilation in the world won't help you. Shit, the metal interior case doesn't even line up with the outer plastic case.

Here's an article that supports what I was talking about, with the poor GPU chip design and manufacturing.

http://www.betanews.com/article/Anal...GPU/1213208837

The Redmond company wanted to avoid using an application-specific integrated circuit (ASIC) vendor in an attempt to save millions in production costs. Instead, it designed the chip on its own, outsourcing the manufacturing to Taiwan Semiconductor.

Unfortunately, Microsoft's design did not dissipate heat properly. This in turn caused the console to overheat, and was the root cause system problems which cost Microsoft $1 billion to fix -- far more than the tens of millions it was said to have saved.

When news of the overheating problems first surfaced, Microsoft defended its design, saying only 3% of units shipped were susceptible to overheating. That excuse was part of what prompted a fellow named Robert Byers to launch a class-action suit against the company in December 2005. That suit generated some substantive heat on its own, but it flickered out by the following March when the plaintiff voluntarily dismissed the suit without explanation.

Microsoft never confirmed exactly what went wrong with its design, only saying that it was a "design issue." The only clue that the company was to blame for the overheating was that it said it was an internally-initiated design, and not the fault of any of its partners.

EETimes reported on Monday that ATI -- arguably a very prominent ASIC vendor in its own right -- likely was tapped to build the graphics chip following the discovery of the problem. Lewis said that if Microsoft would have chosen an ASIC vendor in the first place, it might have never experienced any problems.

The reasoning for this is pretty simple, Lewis contends: ASICs have experience in building such chips, whereas big companies like Microsoft are something of a jack of all trades, yet a master of none.

The added experience of an ASIC producer can reduce the likelihood of design oversights, he went on, and thus potential issues may be caught well before they lead to a production problem. Lewis said that companies in Microsoft's position really do not need to be designing chips, since they'll only design too few of them for the process to become cost-effective.

[Tanegashima]

17days:
It's been over two years for sony

Sony is still over 3 billion in the hole. By the time Sega pulled the plug on the DC they were a mere 400 million in the hole. 3 billion dollars is a lot of lost ground especially when you're still losing money.

[gamevet]

17days:
It's been over two years for sony

Sony is still over 3 billion in the hole. By the time Sega pulled the plug on the DC they were a mere 400 million in the hole. 3 billion dollars is a lot of lost ground especially when you're still losing money.

Sega as a whole was 400 million in the hole. Sony as a company is not.

http://www.engadget.com/2007/10/25/s...losses-double/

Sony reported its second quarter earnings today, and while the company's overall profits were up, at ¥90.5B ($790M), the Playstation division's losses for the quarter came in at ¥96.7B ($844M), double those of a year ago. Sony says that once it's done accounting for all the recent PS3 inventory changes, it hopes the Playstation division will break even -- potentially in the second half of the fiscal year. Of course, since the PS3 is sold at a loss, the numbers might indicate that Sony's selling more PS3s than ever, but something tells us that's not exactly the plan.

The console hardware has been downscaled to the point that Sony is finally making a profit on the hardware.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...group-analysts

Nikko Citigroup analysts have upgraded their rating on Sony, anticipating that the company will start to break even on the PS3 in August.

If correct, this would be three months earlier than analysts have previously speculated. In January, Sony's Kaz Hirai said that the company would be shooting for profitability within the fiscal year that began in April.

According to Endgadget, Sony's break even point will come only when both the cell processor and RSX graphics chip are shrunk to smaller sizes.

The latest news has caused rumours of a slimmer model PS3 to resurface, although Sony has not commented on such speculation.

http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/31/s...urns-a-profit/

After bleeding red for months, Sony's games division finally turned a profit last quarter. Sony sold 4.9 million PS3s last quarter after slashing console prices, boosting game titles, and cutting production costs internally. Of course, we're sure Wii shortages aren't hurting Sony's bottom line either. Sony did lower its annual sales goal of PS3s from 11 million to 9.5 million (citing a slow start) while increasing PSP projections to 13 million from 10 million as originally expected. Sony's fiscal year ends in March. Overall, Sony's profits rose 25% for the quarter. Welcome back to black Sony, it's been a long time coming.

The PS2 generated about 800 million in profits per year, during its peak sales. If Sony happens to make even 70% of that (including sales from PSP) in the next year, they'll make back that 3 billion in 3 or 4 years, with the added bonus of Blu-Ray sales.

[Joe Redifer]

Also it must be pointed out that Sega has never nor will never have the financial resources of Sony. I'm sure Sony has more money now than Sega has had all of its years in existence combined.

Blu-ray is actually being adopted a bit faster than DVD was when it was introduced. Blu-ray is awesome. I have a very difficult time even watching a regular DVD any more. When I do I feel like an asshole.

[Tanegashima]

True true, Sony in a lot of ways is like GM. They can really absorb losses like nobody's business. They have cash up the ying yang.

[FoxHound]

360 is on route to Texas for repair

EARTH CITY,
MO, US 11/25/2008 6:52 A.M. DEPARTURE SCAN
11/25/2008 5:30 A.M. ARRIVAL SCAN
HODGKINS,
IL, US 11/25/2008 12:45 A.M. DEPARTURE SCAN
HODGKINS,
IL, US 11/24/2008 10:47 P.M. ARRIVAL SCAN
PALATINE,
IL, US 11/24/2008 10:06 P.M. DEPARTURE SCAN
11/24/2008 4:30 P.M. PICKUP SCAN
US 11/21/2008 9:54 P.M. BILLING INFORMATION RECEIVED