This depresses me, Nintendo has fallen (even farther)

[jesus.arnold]

. . . No, but I was agreeing with you.

Oh ok, i'm confused now

Yeah Goldeneye was amazing when it came out and deserved praise for it's pioneering gameplay, whereas Perfect Dark was kinda' like Goldeneye+ I do still slightly prefer Perfect Dark though (even though it's slower) due to all the extras, they threw everything but the kitchen sink into that game.

[MrMatthews]

Oh ok, i'm confused now

Yeah Goldeneye was amazing when it came out and deserved praise for it's pioneering gameplay, whereas Perfect Dark was kinda' like Goldeneye+ I do still slightly prefer Perfect Dark though (even though it's slower) due to all the extras, they threw everything but the kitchen sink into that game.

I've been scrolling up through the pages and pages and pages of this debate and I could have sworn that Gamevet listed Goldeneye as one of the overrated games for the N64 and it only just now occured to me to chime in on that one.

As I've mentioned before, I really don't like Rare's N64 games . . . except for Goldeneye.

Perfect Dark . . . I don't know. In spite of the extras, I still found it boring, The lack of the Bond license hurt it somehow, even though it was marketed as a "spiritual sequel." I think Timesplitters was a much better successor than PD.

[jesus.arnold]

I've been scrolling up through the pages and pages and pages of this debate and I could have sworn that Gamevet listed Goldeneye as one of the overrated games for the N64 and it only just now occured to me to chime in on that one.

As I've mentioned before, I really don't like Rare's N64 games . . . except for Goldeneye.

Perfect Dark . . . I don't know. In spite of the extras, I still found it boring, The lack of the Bond license hurt it somehow, even though it was marketed as a "spiritual sequel." I think Timesplitters was a much better successor than PD.

Not Timesplitters, but Timesplitters 2 definately was a better successor, but then it did come out much later.

The thing that I love about Perfect Dark is the attention to detail and the extras, it holds all the information on stats, has so many customizable options for multiplayer with guns and levels (and god does it have a massive selection of interesting guns), as well as the excellent 4-player co-op mission mode, The campaign was 2-player co-op and counter-op too, those things just about push it over for me. It certainly has a worse overall theme to Goldeneye though, much cooler playing as James Bond, and they had to slow down the walking speed too.

Just realised, I might clean up some of this section and just copy it to my N64 feature to save time

[MrMatthews]

Actually, Timesplitters 2 is the only game I've played of the series, so that's pretty much what I was thinking of. While unmistakingly in the "Goldeneye" style, it actually doesn't suffer much from Bond's absense. My only gripe with the game is that the main campaign is so much shorter than Goldeneye's . . . probably a stay-over from the original Timesplitters, I'm guessing (which I heard was primarily a multiplayer game).

Comparing Timesplitters to Goldeneye brings me back to my only issue with your argument. Your stance seems to be that a next-gen sequel to a game automatically is inferior to the original, simply because it isn't truly "original."

On one hand, some of the GameCube sequels themselves support your argument, somewhat.

Super Mario 64 > Super Mario Sunshine
StarFox 64 > StarFox Assault

But on the other hand, being a sequel doesn't automatically guarantee "more of the same." Most of the time, that's what you get (Smash Bros Brawl, Metroid Prime 2 & 3, any damn Mario Party/Sports game), but that really comes down to the game itself rather than the system it appears on.

[jesus.arnold]

Actually, Timesplitters 2 is the only game I've played of the series, so that's pretty much what I was thinking of. While unmistakingly in the "Goldeneye" style, it actually doesn't suffer much from Bond's absense. My only gripe with the game is that the main campaign is so much shorter than Goldeneye's . . . probably a stay-over from the original Timesplitters, I'm guessing (which I heard was primarily a multiplayer game).

Timeplitters 1 is not actually very much like Goldeneye at all, it doesn't really have a campaign mode, every level is like a game of capture the flag where you run to the end of the stage shooting enemies to get a briefcase or something along those lines and then run back to the start whereby the level ends and a differently themed one start anew.

Comparing Timesplitters to Goldeneye brings me back to my only issue with your argument. Your stance seems to be that a next-gen sequel to a game automatically is inferior to the original, simply because it isn't truly "original."

It depends on how much new stuff is put into the game, i'd say Timesplitters 2 is definately an excellent game in it's own right, whereas Smash Bros Melee and Mario Kart: Double Dash were a lot more lazy, and have now been pretty much superceded by the newer, equally lazy Wii versions.

But on the other hand, being a sequel doesn't automatically guarantee "more of the same." Most of the time, that's what you get (Smash Bros Brawl, Metroid Prime 2 & 3, any damn Mario Party/Sports game), but that really comes down to the game itself rather than the system it appears on.

I just wish that Nintendo had made more original IP's with interesting ideas, The Gamecube will never have much of an identity of it's own to me.

[MrMatthews]

Timeplitters 1 is not actually very much like Goldeneye at all, it doesn't really have a campaign mode, every level is like a game of capture the flag where you run to the end of the stage shooting enemies to get a briefcase or something along those lines and then run back to the start whereby the level ends and a differently themed one start anew.

One of these days I'll pick up Future Perfect. I heard it's almost as good as #2.

It depends on how much new stuff is put into the game, i'd say Timesplitters 2 is definately an excellent game in it's own right, whereas Smash Bros Melee and Mario Kart: Double Dash were a lot more lazy, and have now been pretty much superceded by the newer, equally lazy Wii versions.

See, here's where it gets a little fuzzy to me. Most of the tracks in the first 3 cups of Double Dash weren't as good as the ones from 64. But I think DD offered enough improvements and innovations to balance things out.

There wasn't a whole lot of game to begin with in the original Smash Bros, so I think having so many more levels and characters in Melee (in addition to the ability to unlock the 64 levels) makes it the best game in the series. I'm not sure how it could be called lazy.

Wind Waker may have controlled just like its 64 counterparts and revisited some of the same areas, but I think it was just as good, despite the rather lengthy sailing bits.

Super Mario Sunshine was very different from Mario 64. A very fun game in its own right, although admittedly inferior. I'd say that Mario Galaxy is better than both.

I just wish that Nintendo had made more original IP's with interesting ideas, The Gamecube will never have much of an identity of it's own to me.

I see your point here, and I agree to an extent. Aside from Batallion Wars (which was 2nd party anyway, I believe) and Pikmin, Nintendo didn't start anything new on the GameCube. But how many more IPs got their start on the N64?

[sega fan]

'Course nothing will ever beat Genesis or SNES.

Epic win.

Also, why the hell are we having this conversation? I thought we put this BEHIND US. Now, so we can all see what everyone else is going to say to a comment you might make, I'll save you the trouble, read this.

CONCLUSION OF THIS THREAD

N64 - was half-way decent, it had a pocketful of games that were indeed far spread out, I remember being very, very little, around 4 or so in 1998 when we first got our PS1 and N64 (by trading "my" Genesis Mark I and "my sisters" SNES) we kept having a constant slew of awesome software for our playstation but every few months we'd get a good game for N64. I mean months. To a four year old, months seem like years. I think that we only had 5 - 6 games for the thing, but they were all the Thrift store commons today, Mario 64, Goldeneye etc. Since I was little then, in retrospect going through my memories, I just thought I was being dramatic as a little kid when I thought games were months apart but listening to retronauts (1up), I was not to far off from the truth.

Ps1 - Everyone Loves it because of quality software being pumped out each week.

Saturn - The (so-claimed "Overrated" ) N64 and the Ps1, made the saturn seem to be a joke from Sega because of past mistakes as the 32X ans Sega CD. (but all-in-all, The Saturn is a fine console IMO, but $10 says the next post won't talk about me making peace, it'll be about OMGFZZZ, TEH SEGARZ FANZ SEZ TEH SATURNS IS GUUD !, ATTACK HEM)

So, can we all agree, Please ? It's stupid to see how my little post made about 20 pages of "Oh yeah, well f*%k You!". If we can't agree lets agree to disagree, if not, rip each other to shreads, Atleast you can't say I didn't try to stop the repetitive argument with peace.

[MrMatthews]

You should be flattered that your thread sparked so much controversy and discussion!

Everyone loves defending their favorite consoles, I suppose.

[jesus.arnold]

One of these days I'll pick up Future Perfect. I heard it's almost as good as #2.

Yeah it's still a very good game just a lot more commercialised

See, here's where it gets a little fuzzy to me. Most of the tracks in the first 3 cups of Double Dash weren't as good as the ones from 64. But I think DD offered enough improvements and innovations to balance things out.

I honestly thought Double Dash was inferior to MK64 in every respect other than graphics, the 2 players to a kart idea didn't seem to make that much difference to the gameplay, the power-ups were completely buggered up and ended up causing way too much handicapping and the tracks didn't have all the opportunity's to screw over your friends like they did in MK64.

There wasn't a whole lot of game to begin with in the original Smash Bros, so I think having so many more levels and characters in Melee (in addition to the ability to unlock the 64 levels) makes it the best game in the series. I'm not sure how it could be called lazy.

Not all of the N64 levels were in Melee.

There was definately noticible improvements to the single player but as always it still sucked anyway, Smash Bros is always about the multi-player, the best thing about that upgrade was definately the moving level designs which rocked (love the Pokemon and F-Zero level) and I felt it was generally more balanced, it's definately not the best though as Brawl has masses more stuff in it.

Wind Waker may have controlled just like its 64 counterparts and revisited some of the same areas, but I think it was just as good, despite the rather lengthy sailing bits.

Super Mario Sunshine was very different from Mario 64. A very fun game in its own right, although admittedly inferior. I'd say that Mario Galaxy is better than both.

Wind Waker was a pretty decent game, but unlike Ocarina when it came out (or Mario 64 for Sunshine) it wasn't particularly noteworthy compared to it's peers, Ico (and later on Okami) made it look like a joke, and it's the same when comparing Mario Sunshine to Ratchet and Clank.

I see your point here, and I agree to an extent. Aside from Batallion Wars (which was 2nd party anyway, I believe) and Pikmin, Nintendo didn't start anything new on the GameCube. But how many more IPs got their start on the N64?

Nintendo didn't create a whole load of new IP's for the N64 either, the most important being Smash Bros, Mario Party , maybe Paper Mario (I guess that's kind of an evolution of Mario RPG though) and 1080 (shame that series went down the drain somewhat)

But then they still had Rare around to make more unique games like Goldeneye, Blast Corps, Conker's Bad Fur Day and Jet Force Gemini.

The N64 was more about completely re-inventing their classics for Nintendo (and really some of their games such Wave Race were virtually new games in themselves they were so far removed from their predescessors)

Not to mention the 4-player stuff, which was severely under-developed until the N64 came out.

[jesus.arnold]

Epic win.

Also, why the hell are we having this conversation? I thought we put this BEHIND US. Now, so we can all see what everyone else is going to say to a comment you might make, I'll save you the trouble, read this.

CONCLUSION OF THIS THREAD

N64 - was half-way decent, it had a pocketful of games that were indeed far spread out, I remember being very, very little, around 4 or so in 1998 when we first got our PS1 and N64 (by trading "my" Genesis Mark I and "my sisters" SNES) we kept having a constant slew of awesome software for our playstation but every few months we'd get a good game for N64. I mean months. To a four year old, months seem like years. I think that we only had 5 - 6 games for the thing, but they were all the Thrift store commons today, Mario 64, Goldeneye etc. Since I was little then, in retrospect going through my memories, I just thought I was being dramatic as a little kid when I thought games were months apart but listening to retronauts (1up), I was not to far off from the truth.

Ps1 - Everyone Loves it because of quality software being pumped out each week.

Saturn - The (so-claimed "Overrated" ) N64 and the Ps1, made the saturn seem to be a joke from Sega because of past mistakes as the 32X ans Sega CD. (but all-in-all, The Saturn is a fine console IMO, but $10 says the next post won't talk about me making peace, it'll be about OMGFZZZ, TEH SEGARZ FANZ SEZ TEH SATURNS IS GUUD !, ATTACK HEM)

So, can we all agree, Please ? It's stupid to see how my little post made about 20 pages of "Oh yeah, well f*%k You!". If we can't agree lets agree to disagree, if not, rip each other to shreads, Atleast you can't say I didn't try to stop the repetitive argument with peace.

OMGFZZZ, TEH SEGARZ FANZ SEZ TEH SATURNS IS GUUD !, ATTACK HEM

Seriously though we're not actually arguing that much anymore I personally feel that it had turned more into a (relatively) friendly discussion.

[MrMatthews]

LOL

. . . a friendly discussion between a handful of extremely stubborn game fans.

[johnnyb]

It has been entertaining watching from the sidelines!

[gamevet]

Wind Waker was a pretty decent game, but unlike Ocarina when it came out (or Mario 64 for Sunshine) it wasn't particularly noteworthy compared to it's peers, Ico (and later on Okami) made it look like a joke, and it's the same when comparing Mario Sunshine to Ratchet and Clank.

Wind Waker is an excellent game, but it falls apart about the 75% mark. You could tell where Miyamoto had to cut it off, when they were running way past its scheduled release. If there was ever a game due for a remake, it's Wind Waker. I'd love to play this game the way it was meant to be, not the hacked off version we were left to play.

Dunno, when I think original Xbox online I think generic FPS and racing games, which I could play on just about everything, I'll admit I'm probably wrong here anyway though. When I think of Gamecube multiplayer I think Smash Bros, Four Swords, Crystal Chronicles, Wario Ware, Mario Party (when you've played one you've played them all but can still be a good time waster) Billy Hatcher, Pikmin 2, Mario Kart, Star Fox Assault (I actually really enjoy the 4 player mode on teams) and as well as that you get all said FPS and Racing game multiplayer stuff. With the Dreamcast I think Powerstone 2, Chu Chu Rocket, Ooga Booga, Cannon Spike.

When I think of the original Xbox LIVE, Halo 2 isn't the first game that comes to mind. My best gaming experiences were with games like Burnout 3: Takedown, Forza Motorsports, Star Wars: Battlefront 1&2, Battlefield 2 and Call of Duty 3.

Star Wars: Battlefront wasn't just 3rd person ground action, you'd also have massive battles in space and flying Snow Speeders into battle, while others were using Walkers to take down the enemies. You had Snow Troopers using jet packs to fly over enemies and shooting down from above. In Battlefront 2 you had battle droids vs. clone troopers and Jedi vs. Sith masters. Every battle had a unique experience, unlike anything I've played before.

Forza and Burnout 3 was pretty unique as well, because I'd find matches with people from multiple countries, with many stories to tell. You just can't get that kind of interaction, playing with a couple of buddies you've played with before, on a console in the same room. Forza also offered the opportunity to show off the custom paint jobs you've work so hard to put onto your car. Every car had a unique story to tell, with gamers putting their favorite game characters on the hoods of their cars.


When I think of multiplayer gaming on the Dreamcast, it's with the online segment. I have many fond memories playing online with games like PSO, Alien Front Online, Daytona and the NFL2K series.

You're really missing out on a unique gaming experience, if you haven't treaded the waters of online gaming. I'll take that over sitting in a room with a couple of my friends anyday, because no 2 gaming experiences are the same, and playing against an unknown opponent brings a whole different view of the way you play the game.

[MrMatthews]

what, you mean the way it was like "Hey, here's an adventure, we're going along, let's do some stuff, develop some story hurryupnowit'sdone!!!"

[InternalPrimate]

Wind Waker was a pretty decent game, but unlike Ocarina when it came out (or Mario 64 for Sunshine) it wasn't particularly noteworthy compared to it's peers, Ico (and later on Okami) made it look like a joke, and it's the same when comparing Mario Sunshine to Ratchet and Clank.

*Head just exploded*

I enjoyed Okami on the Wii, and I was expecting Zelda-like quality, but what I got was inferior to the Nintendo series. It always seems like whenever there's a challenger to a favorite, people always go with the challenger no matter the true differences. I'll say it again: Wind Waker walked circles around both Ico and Okami.

And although Super Mario Sunshine maybe the black-sheep of its series, I have yet to play any game that would make me consider it a joke.