This depresses me, Nintendo has fallen (even farther)

[MrMatthews]

Sega Fan, I gotta ask: how did you develop such staunch, barn-burning opinions about Nintendo consoles? Obviously, they are your opinions, and I'm not going to say they are wrong, but they seem a little . . . ah, misguided.

I'm going to go out on a limb and venture a guess that the N64 was one of your first consoles (hence the bias), but it's time to call a spade a spade. The N64 easily had the worst third-party support of any Nintendo console before or since. For the entirety of the N64's life cycle, it was basically just Nintendo and Rare holding the thing above water. The GameCube and SNES both had more eye-pleasing graphics (in my opinion, of course) and much better libraries.

[nissling]

Nintendo have sucked since fifteen years back in time imo.

[MrMatthews]

...as opposed to Sega, who remained consistently awesome!

[Joe Redifer]

Sega has never made a bad game. Ever. I think it is impossible. They are so awesome. Wait... what's that? Oh, the alarm. Was I just dreaming?

[jesus.arnold]

Sega Fan, I gotta ask: how did you develop such staunch, barn-burning opinions about Nintendo consoles? Obviously, they are your opinions, and I'm not going to say they are wrong, but they seem a little . . . ah, misguided.

I'm going to go out on a limb and venture a guess that the N64 was one of your first consoles (hence the bias), but it's time to call a spade a spade. The N64 easily had the worst third-party support of any Nintendo console before or since. For the entirety of the N64's life cycle, it was basically just Nintendo and Rare holding the thing above water. The GameCube and SNES both had more eye-pleasing graphics (in my opinion, of course) and much better libraries.

Who cares about the 3rd parties when the 1st and 2nd parties of the N64 were two of the best game developing companies of the entire generation?

I was half with you until you mentioned the pathetic Gamecube as being better than the N64

I owned both the Gamecube and the N64 when they came out and bought most of the biggest titles as they came out, the Gamecube was one of the biggest wastes of time out there, they lost RARE immediately and then Nintendo spent the whole generation remaking the same old games with slightly better graphics that I already owned on the N64 (Smash Bros, Mario Kart DD, Star Fox Assault, Zelda, Wave Race, Mario Sunshine, Mario Tennis, Mario Party, Mario Golf, F-Zero, 1080)

And you may say something like "thats what Nintendo always does, milk it's licences" well the difference is that the transition from SNES to N64 actually had a massive affect on gameplay, a 3D game plays much differently to a 2D one, 4 controller ports is a massive boon to multiplayer games, whereas taking a game and remaking it with better graphics and features and then reselling it is a major waste of time.

Also i'd like to say who buys a system for the 3rd party games? people buy systems for the exclusives, if most of the Gamecube 3rd party games are on the PS2 as well anyway and all the exclusives are lazy remakes then why not buy the PS2?

after owning a Gamecube for that generation all I had to show for it was Eternal Darkness and Metroid Prime, I should've bought a Dreamcast, as should every other poor fool out there that bought the GC, then maybe the Dreamcast would've got the sales it actually deserved.

[MrMatthews]

Who cares about the 3rd parties when the 1st and 2nd parties of the N64 were two of the best game developing companies of the entire generation?

Well, obviously Sega Fan cares, because that was one of his validations for the N64 in the first place (and hence, what I was actually referring to)

I was half with you until you mentioned the pathetic Gamecube as being better than the N64

I owned both the Gamecube and the N64 when they came out and bought most of the biggest titles as they came out, the Gamecube was one of the biggest wastes of time out there, they lost RARE immediately and then Nintendo spent the whole generation remaking the same old games with slightly better graphics that I already owned on the N64 (Smash Bros, Mario Kart DD, Star Fox Assault, Zelda, Wave Race, Mario Sunshine, Mario Tennis, Mario Party, Mario Golf, F-Zero, 1080)

And you may say something like "thats what Nintendo always does, milk it's licences" well the difference is that the transition from SNES to N64 actually had a massive affect on gameplay, a 3D game plays much differently to a 2D one, 4 controller ports is a massive boon to multiplayer games, whereas taking a game and remaking it with better graphics and features and then reselling it is a major waste of time.

Also i'd like to say who buys a system for the 3rd party games? people buy systems for the exclusives, if most of the Gamecube 3rd party games are on the PS2 as well anyway and all the exclusives are lazy remakes then why not buy the PS2?

after owning a Gamecube for that generation all I had to show for it was Eternal Darkness and Metroid Prime, I should've bought a Dreamcast, as should every other poor fool out there that bought the GC, then maybe the Dreamcast would've got the sales it actually deserved.

Good riddance to Rare, and if you think that the GameCube had only slightly better graphics than the N64, then nothing else I say is going to matter.

the transition from SNES to N64 actually had a massive affect on gameplay, a 3D game plays much differently to a 2D one, 4 controller ports is a massive boon to multiplayer games

Metroid Prime [is good]

who buys a system for the 3rd party games? people buy systems for the exclusives

Those were the only points you made that I actually agreed with. The rest I honestly find rather laughable. But hey, the same thing I said to Sega Fan applies to you as well. They're your opinions.

[jesus.arnold]

Well, obviously Sega Fan cares, because that was one of his validations for the N64 in the first place (and hence, what I was actually referring to)

Hmmm, didn't notice that in Segafan's 1st post (because you didn't quote it, and your conversation had continued for 2 pages since then, though I still should've read all from beginning), fair play on the Gamecube 3rd party being better than N64 comment.

Good riddance to Rare

Yeah, good riddance to the company who made 10 odd games consistantly rated as some of the best of that whole generation.....hey...wait a minute

if you think that the GameCube had only slightly better graphics than the N64, then nothing else I say is going to matter.

The SNES had massively better graphics than the Atari 2600, with the 2600 you'd have to have a pretty good imagination to see anything other than blocks, on the other hand the N64 had graphics to the standard that you could see what everything was supposed to be and move about in proper 3D, I guess saying slightly better is being a little bit unfair still though.

Those were the only points you made that I actually agreed with. The rest I honestly find rather laughable. But hey, the same thing I said to Sega Fan applies to you as well. They're your opinions.

Well done, you managed to counter my argument without actually backing up your opinions with anything other than a few choice words such as "laughable" this doesn't do well in reinforcing your point of view tbh, in fact it virtually sounds like you've got nothing to say in defence of your point at all.

[gamevet]

The N64 was a blurry mess and I only thought about 6 titles really looked great on the console. The rest were just horrible and yes that includes Conker's Bad Fur Day. I dust off the console at least once a year and it truely doesn't stand the test of time.

I'd rather have Rogue Squadron II, MGS: Twin Snakes, Metroid Prime and Resident Evil 4 on Gamecube, over the whole library of games the N64 had.

[jesus.arnold]

The N64 was a blurry mess and I only thought about 6 titles really looked great on the console. The rest were just horrible and yes that includes Conker's Bad Fur Day. I dust off the console at least once a year and it truely doesn't stand the test of time.

blah, heard it all before, lets be honest here "blurry mess" is closer to "slightly fuzzy" at the time I didn't even notice the blurryness at all I could however notice the appalingly ugly pixelated graphics of the PS1 and Saturn (PS1 was still an amazing console though)

I'd rather have Rogue Squadron II, MGS: Twin Snakes, Metroid Prime and Resident Evil 4 on Gamecube, over the whole library of games the N64 had.

God you must have a really bad opinion of the Gamecube too, only four games mentioned and two of them were multi-format.

[Melf]

Isn't the Wii designed for people who can't deal with so many buttons on a controller? That's Nintendo's line, if I recall correctly.

Almost everything on 360 is modern. They're all FPS, racing sims, Tom Clancy games, and all sorts of GTA wannabes.

That's a pretty narrow minded view of the console's library. You can't take issue to the Wii shovelware complaints and then say things like this. Doesn't the Wii have FPS games? Sandbox titles like the Godfather?

I see no adventure games on 360.

In what sense?

No light gun games.

This is true, but doing light gun games for HD sets is a bit more complicated, and the only one there is that I know of is Time Crisis 4 for PS3, and it's pretty mediocre. Then again, light gun games this generation haven't been too hot in general, and while the Wii has the lion's share of the genre, nothing has really been exactly spectacular.

Not even any real puzzle games outside of XBLA.

What's there is pretty solid. Super Puzzle Fighter HD Remix, Puzzle Quest, Puzzle Arcade, Braid, Hexic 2, Tetris Splash, Poker Smash, Astro Pop, Lumines, etc. Many of those can be played online as well. How many puzzle games do you need?

No 2D platformers.

Are there really any being released outside the DS nowadays? And no, the Virtual Console doesn't count.

No real shooters.

Again, XBLA is pretty good here. Even not counting reissues like Ikaruga and Rez, there's some great original stuff there like Omega Five, and the Mutant Storm games. Wartech and Project Silpheed are out there, but I haven't played them and can't comment on the quality.

No pinball games.

I think there's a compilation out there, but I don't know what it's called. Pinball FX on XBLA is pretty cool though.

The Wii has all of these genres covered, at least a little. Order Up is basically a more complicated version of Tapper; Kororinpa is Marble Madness on steroids. How many 360 games feature "classic" gameplay at all?

I think XBLA is where you're going to find most of the classic playing games, and the selection there is pretty diverse. There's something in each genre there, just like on the Wii. The difference is that the 360 isn't overwhelmed by an avalanche of licensed shovelware and kiddie games like the Wii is. You actually have to pick through the crap to find the good games on the Wii, which are there if you know where to look for them.

Thing is, I don't want to pick through a library of games made for my daughter and mom to find games for me. That's my principle beef with the Wii, and it's the reason I sold it to buy a PS3 - which I like much better as a secondary system, to tell the truth. I kept my Wii for a year before selling it, and I had waited a almost 8 months to buy it in the first place. Nintendo has drifted farther and farther away from supporting the kind of games I like, and having to wait for something that interests me.

I look at games like Assassin's Creed, Gears of War, and Uncharted and think "you'll never see anything like this on the Wii." That's why I no longer own the console.

[sega fan]

Alright everyone, stop it. I just wanted you guys to know about a mediocre choice made by a gaming founding father company. I didn't want this to be a shitstorm and have everyone fighting for the next 10+ days. so to everyone, calm down.

P.S. - I'm going to make a thread about gaming origins and explain myself in said thread later.

[gamevet]

blah, heard it all before, lets be honest here "blurry mess" is closer to "slightly fuzzy" at the time I didn't even notice the blurryness at all I could however notice the appalingly ugly pixelated graphics of the PS1 and Saturn (PS1 was still an amazing console though)

I guess that depends on how good the resolution of your television was and is. Most televisions only supported 320 x 240 in the early 90's, while a Trinitron and a couple of other televisions supported 640 x 480. Most of the N64 games were displayed in 320 x 240, so it didn't look so bad on an older set, but it really showed on a television that supported the higher resolutions.

N64 games were pixelated as well, it was just blurred by the N64 hardware. The one game that really impressed me on the N64 was Rogue Squadron with the RAM pack. The resolution was bumped up to 640 x 480 and the blur really wasn't there. Perfect Dark, on the other hand, still looked blurry with the RAM pack.

God you must have a really bad opinion of the Gamecube too, only four games mentioned and two of them were multi-format.

No, I'd just rather play those 4 titles, over all of the games I have on the N64.

Sure, there's a port of RE4 on the Wii and PS2, but I don't have a Wii (won't buy one anytime soon) and the PS2 version doesn't support progressive scan. MGS: The Twin Snakes, is the best version of Metal Gear Solid, so why play it anywhere else?

I have Zelda: The Ocarina of Time on the Gamecube, so I wouldn't need to plug in the N64 to play that game either.

The N64 sold around 30 million units, and I don't believe it was more deserving of those sales numbers, in comparison to the Gamecube or Saturn.

[sega fan]

I would like to say, anything that jesus.arnold has said, I would say. Read all his posts on this thread. It's like he's reading my brain and saving me the trouble of having to repeat myself in ANOTHER game debate. He's trying to be unbiased, like I attempt to, and I commend him for it.

EDIT : gamevet, you are starting to blow thing out of proportion, the n64 is only SLIGHTLY, keyword : slightly, blurry.

ALSO IM COMING OUT AND SAYING IT.

okay the reason I prefer the n64 over snes is because of the variety of titles. I mean, seriously, GAMES LIKE DOOM, 007, AND QUAKE ON A NINTENDO CONSOLE, the modern day equivilent to that is having Gears of War on wii. If you look at the good SNES titles, it's either RPG's or sequals/remakes to NES games. Sorta like

Nes = good, then, SNES = crappy, same basic thing on new hardware.
n64 = good, then, Gamecube = crappy, same basic thing on new hardware.

I wonder if the Wii 2 will be like every other nintendo console generation but this time, not made of fail and aids.

[j_factor]

That's a pretty narrow minded view of the console's library. You can't take issue to the Wii shovelware complaints and then say things like this. Doesn't the Wii have FPS games? Sandbox titles like the Godfather?

Yes. I wasn't complaining that those games exist. I was complaining about the lack of stuff that doesn't fall into those categories, on 360.

In what sense?

I don't know what you're asking. But, you know, adventure games. Xbox had quite a few: Syberia, Syberia 2, Dreamfall, Still Life, Indigo Prophecy, Broken Sword, etc. Wii has a few already: Sam & Max, Zack & Wiki, Harvey Birdman, with Gateway of Memory coming up, and probably some others in the pipeline. I haven't seen a single adventure game for the 360. PS3 doesn't have any yet that I know of either, although Heavy Rain is coming soon (and looks amazing).

This is true, but doing light gun games for HD sets is a bit more complicated, and the only one there is that I know of is Time Crisis 4 for PS3, and it's pretty mediocre. Then again, light gun games this generation haven't been too hot in general, and while the Wii has the lion's share of the genre, nothing has really been exactly spectacular.

Umbrella Chronicles, Ghost Squad, and House of the Dead 2 & 3 have been my favorite light gun releases in a long, long time.

What's there is pretty solid. Super Puzzle Fighter HD Remix, Puzzle Quest, Puzzle Arcade, Braid, Hexic 2, Tetris Splash, Poker Smash, Astro Pop, Lumines, etc. Many of those can be played online as well. How many puzzle games do you need?

I want one that isn't a download to my hard drive. Call me old-fashioned!

Are there really any being released outside the DS nowadays? And no, the Virtual Console doesn't count.

Wario Land, and Muramasa coming later this year. And uh, LittleBigPlanet on PS3, kind of.

Again, XBLA is pretty good here. Even not counting reissues like Ikaruga and Rez, there's some great original stuff there like Omega Five, and the Mutant Storm games. Wartech and Project Silpheed are out there, but I haven't played them and can't comment on the quality.

I haven't played Project Sylpheed, but Wartech isn't really a shmup.

I think XBLA is where you're going to find most of the classic playing games, and the selection there is pretty diverse. There's something in each genre there, just like on the Wii. The difference is that the 360 isn't overwhelmed by an avalanche of licensed shovelware and kiddie games like the Wii is. You actually have to pick through the crap to find the good games on the Wii, which are there if you know where to look for them.

Thing is, I don't want to pick through a library of games made for my daughter and mom to find games for me. That's my principle beef with the Wii, and it's the reason I sold it to buy a PS3 - which I like much better as a secondary system, to tell the truth. I kept my Wii for a year before selling it, and I had waited a almost 8 months to buy it in the first place. Nintendo has drifted farther and farther away from supporting the kind of games I like, and having to wait for something that interests me.

I don't understand this complaint. I don't "pick through" games. I keep up on games that look interesting to me, and ignore what doesn't. You're acting like it's the same thing as flipping through old, unsorted vinyl at the record store. It's not. The Wii certainly has a deluge of shit. But how does that in any way diminish the quality titles that are there? I'm not going to enjoy No More Heroes any less just because there are X number of Kidz Sportz games on the system.

I look at games like Assassin's Creed, Gears of War, and Uncharted and think "you'll never see anything like this on the Wii." That's why I no longer own the console.

You'll never see anything like that on the Genesis. Don't you still own one of those?

I mean, you're right, you'll never see anything like those on the Wii. And, those are great games (especially Uncharted). But the Wii still has other great games. I still play all four last-gen systems. I still play Playstation and Saturn. I still play my 16-bit systems, and once in a while, my 8-bit stuff as well. The Wii is basically a last-gen system with a fancy controller and some extra features (Miis, VC, wi-fi, etc.). I don't see anything wrong with that. In fact I wouldn't really have minded if 360, PS3, and Wii hadn't come out yet and we were still talking about Gamecube and Xbox games.

[Melf]

I don't know what you're asking. But, you know, adventure games. Xbox had quite a few: Syberia, Syberia 2, Dreamfall, Still Life, Indigo Prophecy, Broken Sword, etc. Wii has a few already: Sam & Max, Zack & Wiki, Harvey Birdman, with Gateway of Memory coming up, and probably some others in the pipeline. I haven't seen a single adventure game for the 360. PS3 doesn't have any yet that I know of either, although Heavy Rain is coming soon (and looks amazing).

I wasn't sure what you meant by adventure. I haven't seen any of those on the 360 and PS3. I haven't seen many RPGs on the Wii either, so I'm willing to call it even.

Umbrella Chronicles, Ghost Squad, and House of the Dead 2 & 3 have been my favorite light gun releases in a long, long time.

I haven't played UC, but Ghost Squad was a decent little LG game. I already have HOTD on the original Xbox though.

I want one that isn't a download to my hard drive. Call me old-fashioned!

What's the difference? A game is a game. Are you going to travel so much with your Wii that you need a disc?

I haven't played Project Sylpheed, but Wartech isn't really a shmup.

The 360 has some Raidens and a few others that are stuck in Japan. I really wish they'd release them here.

I don't understand this complaint. I don't "pick through" games. I keep up on games that look interesting to me, and ignore what doesn't. You're acting like it's the same thing as flipping through old, unsorted vinyl at the record store. It's not. The Wii certainly has a deluge of shit. But how does that in any way diminish the quality titles that are there? I'm not going to enjoy No More Heroes any less just because there are X number of Kidz Sportz games on the system.

What I mean is that I have a list of 360 games I want to play that I simply can't afford right now because it's a pretty big list. Be it used or new, I always find something good to play. When I had my Wii, I would spend a solid chunk of time in looking over the games, trying to find SOMETHING to buy. I played the Marios and Zeldas. I played Zak & Wiki and Ghost Squad. There were times when I'd go into TRU or Gamestop looking to buy a new Wii game and would end up buying one for 360 or just leaving empty-handed because there was nothing that interested me.

Even worse, I look at the release list and can't see more than 2 or 3 games I'd buy for the whole year. Now, I don't buy every game at release, but finding them used or at a reduced price means I always have something new (to me) to play. If I stuck with the Wii, I'd be playing my older consoles a lot more while I waited for something worth buying to hit.

You'll never see anything like that on the Genesis. Don't you still own one of those?

The Genesis is a modern console competing today. I remember commenting on the Wii's lack of power when it was released, and people gave me the litany of excuses about how the hardware took developers by surprise, good games take time to make, yadda yadda. Two years later and I'm still waiting. Wii games don't look bad, but they sure as hell don't look next gen, and after playing some of the awesome games released on the 360 and PS3 so far, to think that you'll never see games of that scope on the Wii is sad. Not to mention the LOLable online play and DLC features.

I mean, you're right, you'll never see anything like those on the Wii. And, those are great games (especially Uncharted). But the Wii still has other great games. I still play all four last-gen systems. I still play Playstation and Saturn. I still play my 16-bit systems, and once in a while, my 8-bit stuff as well. The Wii is basically a last-gen system with a fancy controller and some extra features (Miis, VC, wi-fi, etc.). I don't see anything wrong with that. In fact I wouldn't really have minded if 360, PS3, and Wii hadn't come out yet and we were still talking about Gamecube and Xbox games.

I agree 100% that this gen came WAY too quickly. I think the Xbox and GC still had a ton of life in them, but what can you do? I may end up having to pick up a Wii for my five-year-old daughter, and that's sobering to someone who's been a gamer since the '70s. A Nintendo console for my daughter, and not me? We're supposed to outgrow our games, not the other way around!