Throwing Money Down the Drain!

[InternalPrimate]

You hear that Elusive and MrMatthews? We're in an exclusive club! The Peanut Gallery! I feel like I'm in the Little Rascals. "No 17Days Allowed!"

I find it ironic that 17Days is complaining about the way people argue with him when he just stated, and I quote:

Elusive, you can bend over and take whatever ass raping they want to dish, excuse me for blowing the bullshit whistle before I blew $100's into the air.

Maybe not throw stones in your glass house?

And again, maybe 17days missed this the first 30 times I said it, I dig NesterDC SE. I've referred to it as "awesome", "fine", "sweet", and "the tits". I just find it hard to reconcile the fact that some can't admit that the subject of emulation is morally ambiguous.

The funny thing is, I don't mind debating Edge, because I don't think we've been mean spirited with each other in a long time. We disagree, but I still respect the guy. You, on the other hand, 17days, are just a dick. The moderators can warn me or suspend me for that one. But hey, I calls em like I sees em.

ADDED: Just read this now:

If I take my friend's iPod, and he knows it, and he never does anything, its not really a crime. Douched out, yes, a criminal offense, no. Maybe he's just that rich he doesn't care, maybe he feels he owes me for a favor, who knows, but the bottom line is a crime is not a crime until someone wants to prosecute. Its only stealing if someone in an authoritative position says it is (like a judge or a police officer)

Holy cow that is bullshit.

[gamevet]

How can you prove you legally own the titles?

that's another thing I hate, they don't even so much as snail mail you an ownership card. If I have to pay $5 for fucking 99¢ Mario Bros., they can at least mail me a credit card-type ownership card saying "hey bitch, I own this shit" so down the road I can prove I own the game forever and always. Console makers can't just take back what is rightfully yours, which is why I think download-only software should almost be illegal. There should always be some kind of irrefutable physical evidence of the purchase, even if it doesn't contain the game data in and of itself.

Yeah, there's a bunch of those titles I wouldn't pay for, but when Sega offers REZ in HD, I'm paying for it. I already own REZ on the PS2, but it's not the same game.

I've probably spent more money in the arcades on games like Donkey Kong, Star Castle, Virtua Fighter and countless other titles. I have nothing to show from it, but great gaming memories; I can at least say my money supported the cause, while downloading emulated games did nothing to support the industry. When the Dreamcast's 3rd party support was not getting sales at retail, were you burning CDs or buying the games to support the effort?

I've emulated more than my fair share of games, but I still make an effort to support the companies that have put their money on the line. The industry was forced to provide the downloadable content the way it is, because too many people would just give it away (steal it) if they didn't.

[celticsfan]

Or how its "Its soooo time consuming" to hunt down these roms even though there are 1000 sites / torrents.

You don't have kids, do you Edge?

If you did, you'd know how time consuming simple things like going to the bathroom are, especially when the kids are screaming and your wife needs help in the kitchen.

What's so irritating is that you seem to belittle those of us who would, God forbid, PAY VC for games. For instance, I wanted to play Mario 64. Buying a used N64 and the game could cost me $30. Yeah, I could go online and try to find these roms, but by the time I find a Mac compatible N64 emulator and hunt down the rom, there goes my free time.

Or (novel idea), I pay $10 for the game, and make my life simpler.

I understand your point: if you have the means to hunt for illegal roms, and that's your thing, go for it. But I'm not throwing money down the drain by paying for this game legally. In fact, I'm saving so much time and hassle that it more than makes up for whatever dollar amount comes off my debit card.

So drop the know-it-all attitude, and realize that some of us don't have the free time that you have to burn "free Dreamcast compilations."

[MrMatthews]

I pay $10 for the game, and make my life simpler.

I understand your point: if you have the means to hunt for illegal roms, and that's your thing, go for it. But I'm not throwing money down the drain by paying for this game legally. In fact, I'm saving so much time and hassle that it more than makes up for whatever dollar amount comes off my debit card.

It's interesting that 17days and TheEdge bitch and moan about how many of us have been so cruel and thoughtless in our stubborn defense of the Virtual Console . . . and yet none of our arguments have really been more aggressive than this.

*shakes head*

[17daysolderthannes]

When the Dreamcast's 3rd party support was not getting sales at retail, were you burning CDs or buying the games to support the effort?

I didn't have a dreamcast, I was waiting for PS2 because I was currently buying games for my PSX emulator (commercial PSX emulator that only played real games: Connectix Virtual Game Station) and I wanted an actual system to play them on since, again, I knew the emulator would eventually become incompatible/obsolete and I would be fucked (anyone see a pattern here?). At the time, I probably wouldn't have been able to find the DC ISOs or know how to burn them, I was only 14~15 and no one knew how to do that stuff back then (meaning the people I knew). As a kid with no job, you take what you can get, if I can burn the games, I would probably save that oh so important gift opportunity for something else. Nowadays, if I want it, I buy it, end of story, and my collection is probably bigger than most of the people on this forum, so I don't know how I can be so antagonized when I have probably close to 500 licensed official games sitting in my house and 3 more on the way via eBay.

Oh, and as for the DLC vs. hard copy, if you know what you're doing, copying a downloaded game is MUCH easier than ripping a hard copy and then burning it. DLC is to prevent used sales, which to them is no different from emulation.

You don't have kids, do you Edge?

If you did, you'd know how time consuming simple things like going to the bathroom are, especially when the kids are screaming and your wife needs help in the kitchen.

What's so irritating is that you seem to belittle those of us who would, God forbid, PAY VC for games. For instance, I wanted to play Mario 64. Buying a used N64 and the game could cost me $30. Yeah, I could go online and try to find these roms, but by the time I find a Mac compatible N64 emulator and hunt down the rom, there goes my free time.

Or (novel idea), I pay $10 for the game, and make my life simpler.

I understand your point: if you have the means to hunt for illegal roms, and that's your thing, go for it. But I'm not throwing money down the drain by paying for this game legally. In fact, I'm saving so much time and hassle that it more than makes up for whatever dollar amount comes off my debit card.

So drop the know-it-all attitude, and realize that some of us don't have the free time that you have to burn "free Dreamcast compilations."

http://www.sixtyforce.com/

PM me for ROM info

how long did that take...5 seconds?

If you go to a forum that supports this stuff, you could be up and running in 24 hours with less than an hour invested in actual computer time (meaning make a post asking for help and wait for someone to respond). That versus fighting off every parent on earth for a Wii and then spending 10 minutes entering your credit card info into the Wii with that stupid wiimote, and then wait another 10 minutes for the slowest download ever. The Wii is only more convenient or faster if you absolutely have no idea how to use a computer beyond checking e-mail. Not saying you are "wrong" for using VC, but saying your argument is really weak, it sounds more like "I assume its difficult, so it is." If you only want one or two games, VC is fine, its pretty quick if that's all your looking for, but TheEdge's Nester DC file has EVERY NES game (right?), which would cost hundreds if not thousands, not to mention hours to actually download all of them. Like I've said before, if you are that set on being legal and supporting Nintendo, the Wii VC is your option, otherwise its all lame excuses. I know people with kids, they have time to download a file and burn it with discjuggler, I promise.

It's interesting that 17days and TheEdge bitch and moan about how many of us have been so cruel and thoughtless in our stubborn defense of the Virtual Console . . . and yet none of our arguments have really been more aggressive than this.

*shakes head*

Actually, Celticsfan's argument has been the most civil and the least "nah nanny boo boo you're a big dummy head." The worst is how hypocritical you are all being about it. You admit that you do it, but in the same sentence say how illegal and horrible it is that people do this. I would never support someone for downloading XBOX 360, PS3, or REAL Wii games, but if someone wants to download Mario 3, I think its been long enough. You can go on and on about what the law DOESN'T say about this (where is your legal support here, hmmm? I haven't seen any court cases or US laws posted that clearly identify this as illegal), but at the end of the day you're blowing hot air to either just be buzzkill asshats or because you just can't figure out how to do this so you have to slam others for doing it.

[MrMatthews]

Stop being so ignorant. Who is mindlessly "slamming" you for using roms? And why the hell is "I just want to" not a good enough reason for you to shut up about people using the VC? Is there a reason you're such an ass? Do you realize you're doing it?

[cj iwakura]

People who downloaded DC games instead of supporting Sega's last system make me feel ill, because they're part of the reason the system didn't last.

If you enjoy playing a game, you should buy it to support the developers, or don't play it at all.

[Iron Lizard]

Bleeh . I didn't know anyone who did that till it was long dead.

[RowdyRodimus]

People who downloaded DC games instead of supporting Sega's last system make me feel ill, because they're part of the reason the system didn't last.

There were a lot of reasons the Dreamcast didn't last, but I'd say people pirating the games was at or very near the bottom.

[kool kitty89]

17Days suggested that you lose your VC games if your console is replaced, but I'd like to challenge that theory.

A little info on the Wii in particular, firstly it's allways been able to use SD cards, just not more than 2 GB until recently, meaning you'd need to swap them out.

However, even with downloaeded games (VC and WiiWare) and saves backed up to SD, they still need to be loaded to the Wii (at least temporarily) to play them. (and save files must be on the 512 MB internal memory to be recognized) Also, you cannot transfer these games to another Wii using an SD back-up. (which would make piracy very easy)

So if your wii breaks and gets replaced, you'll have a bit of trouble getting your games back. You can only play games that have been installed on your Wii before. http://www.aussie-nintendo.com/forum...t=16277&page=2

Of course you could mod your Wii to get arround this, but then that kind of defeats the purpose.

What's so irritating is that you seem to belittle those of us who would, God forbid, PAY VC for games. For instance, I wanted to play Mario 64. Buying a used N64 and the game could cost me $30. Yeah, I could go online and try to find these roms, but by the time I find a Mac compatible N64 emulator and hunt down the rom, there goes my free time.

Or (novel idea), I pay $10 for the game, and make my life simpler.

Hmm, I wouldn't pay either of those prices, expecially for a N64 game which are among the most common (along with most 5th gen, esp PSX) used games to find a bargain with, they're at the bottom of the value pile, barely starting to come back up due to the age factor. (though on that note I see plenty of SNES and NES games arround too) They're all over thrift stores, granted the most common are the sports games (Madden etc) that almost never sell. The other day I picked up a copy of Mario 64 at the local Good Will for $1.50. (granted at a %50 sale)

Even on ebay you can often find it (cart only) near or below $10 (with shipping).



I personally think that VC isn't really bad (certainly not from a buisness standpoint), but the prices they charge are unreasonable for what they're supplying, and a good indicator that most of the customers are uninformed (or just don't care). I'd say $.99 plus license and transfer costs would be reasonable. (maybe a bit more for some of the really hot games)

WiiWare OTOH is great, and offers new, original, downloadable media (like SBCG4AP ) with a reasonable cost for such a product. (albeit in some cases not exclusive, in SBCG4AP's case it's on PC as well, granted with a delay) In many ways similar to shareware, with the exception that no hard copies are available for distribution. (although in some cases it's true for that too) Many such even have free demo versions, like shareware. (though I'm not sure about Wii exclusives, those that cross PC, have such demos)



I personally usually quite frugal, or at least wary of full price costs. Independent of economic circumstances (in general my family did pretty well), we almost never bought new games, and never (with the exception of the Wii, and NES -1989 I was an infant) new consoles. Always used and often a very good period after release. We only had the NES (excepting PC's) 'till christmas of '96 (IIRC) when we got our SNES. (from a neighbor, with a fairly hefty collection of games >12) We didn't get the N64 until christ 1999. Hell, my little brother and I got gameboys (brick) in mid 1998. Plus we were still buying (in store) SNES games used in store (FuncoLand/GS) until they stopped selling them. (~03/04 iirc)

(though we'd rented) GC in '04, Wii '07. (of course, this leaves out the old 2600 we had, but didn't set up 'till ~2000, plus a used XBOX from my cousin that's not really used, or hooked up)



All that said, I would like to see some unreleased games on VC, particularly as there can be no hard copy for the real system, or even in a licensed compilation (maybe a flash cart,inless you're really hardcore and burn you're own PROMS and make -or canabalize a cartridge, and for coprocessor games you wouldn't even have the flash option) However, such games seem unlikely to be released, for whatever reason. (As I mentioned, in particular I'd like to see Star Fox 2, but there seem to be legal issues with Argonaut, even preventing the original game being released)



ps: excuse the Nintendo theme of my examples, but... well... we were Nintendo and PC.. and pretty much still are in my house and this Forum is a LOT (like orders of magnitude) more interesting than any retro nintedo site I've seen. In my defence I did have SEGA PC games

[TheEdge]

BUT ITS STILL ILLEGAL! OH NOES! ITS CONVENIENT AND DOESNT PILE MONEY ON NINTENDO'S FRONT PORCH! YOU SHOULD DIE!

at least that's what the Elusive, Internal Primate, and Mr. Matthews peanut gallery would say.



Bottom line for the peanut gallery:

If games are no longer made in physical form, I will stop buying games, end of story. If that means my game library is limited to THOUSANDS of existing games, so be it. If that Wii flash card ever somehow loses its data, there is NO WAY to prove prior ownership, not even a physical receipt. If they can't sell me games on my *reasonable* terms, then they won't get my business, end of story. Just like I won't buy a car from an asshole that wants to charge me for "paint undercoat sealant" (or whatever that BS is), I won't buy a download-only game. And I am by no means alone on this. Elusive, you can bend over and take whatever ass raping they want to dish, excuse me for blowing the bullshit whistle before I blew $100's into the air.

LOL................

I know exactly how you feel. Sometimes you just try to make a suggestion and they pull you into some obscure philosophical conversation about things that are completely irrelevant.

Did you see how many times I had to repeat myself in this thread? its insane.

Then Melf and InternalPrimate come in and go way off topic screaming about piracy and such.

I had to tell them in one of my previous posts "Yea, we know its piracy, that was never debated!!!" But they still harp on it like we're stealing from the offering basket at church.

Hilarious. Amazing points here.

Peanut Gallery....I would rather call them the Thread Destroyers.

[MrMatthews]

Well, as soon as you two are done sucking each other's dicks, I'd like to point out that it was you who started this argument. You don't realize that you put people immediately on the defensive by insulting their tastes and preferences simply because you don't agree with them. If you go back and read this thread from the beginning, you can clearly see the response to your initial suggestion being along the lines of "meh . . . not for me." Only after you become increasingly judgemental and patronizing (as usual) did this argument start.

[TheEdge]

Well, as soon as you two are done sucking each other's dicks, I'd like to point out that it was you who started this argument. You don't realize that you put people immediately on the defensive by insulting their tastes and preferences simply because you don't agree with them. If you go back and read this thread from the beginning, you can clearly see the response to your initial suggestion being along the lines of "meh . . . not for me." Only after you become increasingly judgemental and patronizing (as usual) did this argument start.

Are you talking to me or 17days?

Either way.

Go take a long walk off a short pier, Matthews!

Now if you excuse me I have to go play some Shadowgate on my FREE DREAMCAST COMPILATION (Non-official of course)

[MrMatthews]

Both of you, actually.

But I knew that would fall on deaf ears - it's clearly easier for you to mulishly point your fingers at everyone else than it is to accept that you yourself are at least 50% responsible for all the arguments that only you seem to get in.

[TheEdge]

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH,.......(Falls off Pier).....SPLASH!!!.

(hands Mr.Matthews a towel)