Why did Japan never really support Sega?

[gamevet]

Not the fairest of comparisons I know, but it serves to show that Neo Geo CD games could still be relevant in 1995.

It's defineatly not a fair comparison. The Saturn port of In the Hunt was inferior to that of the Playstation version, and there's no reason, beyond poor programming, that it should be the lesser version. Pulstar also used rendered graphics for the enemy models.

We're talking about 2D games, how are any of these games relevant? this isn't a "Saturn Vs Neo Geo CD" discussion, if it was then the Saturn would win by a country mile. We're just discussing whether the Neo Geo CD was a better option for 2D games during 1994-1995

You brought up the question of why the Saturn would be a better choice for 2D gaming than the Neo Geo in 1995. Does the added bonus of Sega's 3D arcade games not come into play, in addition to a system that was more than capable of running solid 2D software?

Are you asking the question as someone just looking at the 2 systems running 2D software side-by-side, or as a better puchase choice?

If a console is successful enough, the 3rd parties have to give their support, again just look at Capcom and the PS2, Capcom hated Sony during that era, they did everything they could to support Dreamcast and then went on to try to support Nintendo, but at the end of the day they still had to go back on their deals and release all their high profile games on PS2 because it was suicide not to. This was using an example where the company hated the console manufacturer so it stands out even more, nobody hated Neo Geo, if it had been a realistic prospect for sales then companies would've happily released games for it, the games would've had to be 2D of course and may have had to be downgraded for multiformats (just like how Resident Evil 4 had to be downgraded for PS2)

Unfortunatly, the Neo Geo CD was tied to the arcade hardware. Neo Geo was a direct competitor with Capcom's 2D arcade hardware, so the decision to create games for a direct competitor wasn't in Capcom's best interest.

Sega paid Capcom for the rights to a Resident Evil game, but Code Veronica was created in-house by Sega. Capcom's support of the Dreamcast had a lot to do with the success they had with games (2D) on the Saturn, but unlike the Saturn, the PS2 and the other consoles were very capable of running those 2D games created for the Dreamcast.

Why do you think Capcom had a hatred towards Sony? The Playstation brought in a ton of cash for Capcom, with titles like Resident Evil being the most successful franchises in Capcom's history. The one company Capcom should have had a hatred towards would have been Nintendo, since they limited 3rd party publishers during the NES era. Yet, Capcom held no loyalties to anyone, even releasing Resident Evil titles on the N64 and later providing short time exclusives to the GC.

I was just thinking, would a proper version of Marvel Versus Street Fighter have been possible on Neo Geo CD? I know that the load times would've been atrocious, making the overall experience pretty worthless, but was just wondering as the PS1 couldn't handle that game if I recall correctly (the PS1 version was compromised to such an extent that it wasn't really the same game anymore)

Yeah, the Neo Geo CD could definatly handle the title, but the load times wouldn't have been that favorable.

They weren't on the list to begin with.

You really didn't make an extensive list though. You'd pointed out titles like Pulstar and a few other key titles, but I didn't see a master list.

OK, not really sure why you brought up the 64 meg chip at all though...
It would probably mainly have been 4 Mbit (512 kB) chips along with a 1 Mbit (128 kB) one and some 256 kbit (32 kB) ones. (unless they used a less common 64 kB chip, which wasn't unheard of, it's what the Genesis eventually shifted to to save board space, not sure if it was actually a 64 kB single die or 2 32 kB chips in a single package though)

I'd brought it up as the most extreme example, nothing more.

The Neo Geo CD had 58 Mbit of system RAM, so I doubt it was using 1Mbit chips in excess, since it would have taken up a ton of space on the system board. I'm curious what chips were being used with the Neo Geo CD, since it had so much RAM?

Maybe not quite as detailed as th ebest ont he saturn, but pretty nice looking and maybe even better on average, it still used quite a bit of photorealistic explosion effects and some digitized animation that I'd say would rival the saturn in that respect, an dgreat audio as well, though the Saturn definitely had better base hardware in most respects, and definitely more flixible. (I don't think Neo had any sprite scaling capabilities either, so not capable of games like Galaxy Force) One major advantage would just be the available memory for holding animation cells, although you might actually be able to pull that off in the Saturn (w/out RAM expansion) by loading highly compressed data into RAM and then using one of those powerful CPUs to decompress it on the fly. (plus stream a small amout of data from CD durring gameplay as well)

Beyond the superior system RAM of the Neo Geo CD, I don't see any other advantage the hardware had over the Saturn. The Saturn had more processing power, a better video processor, better hardware sound and a faster CD drive. The Saturn also had just as impressive explosions onscreen as any game on the Neo Geo.

[17daysolderthannes]

Clockwork Knight is from 1994, Toy Story (the movie) is from 1995.

shit, you're right! WTF? That's so weird that they're so similar. One time my mom walked in while I was playing Clockwork Knight and she was like "Are you playing Toy Story?" The gameplay is super similar, the universe is super similar, so bizarre. And you know Pixar couldn't have copied Clockwork Knight because just rendering Pixar movies takes years IIRC.

[kool kitty89]

The Neo Geo CD had 58 Mbit of system RAM, so I doubt it was using 1Mbit chips in excess, since it would have taken up a ton of space on the system board. I'm curious what chips were being used with the Neo Geo CD, since it had so much RAM?

Well, I was kind of vague in my previous response, but just judging by how the RAM is mapped (based on the articles -including wiki) so guessing it might be something like this:
2 MB 68000 program memory (4x 512 kB 4-bit chips or 1x 2 MB 16-bit chip)
128 kB fixed layer memory (one 128 kB 16-bit chip?)
4 MB graphics memory (probably 2x 8-bit 2 MB chips)
1 MB sound sample memory (2x 512 kB 8-bit chip I'd immagine)
64 kB Z80 program memory (probably 2x 32 kB 4-bit chips, maybe a single 64 kB package like later MD/Genesis used)
512 kB VRAM (probably a single 512 kB 16-bit chip -dual ported, given that it's VRAM)
and 2 kB of battery backed SRAM (single 2 kB chip, not sure about bit width)

Most of that has got to be DRAM or there's no way they could have gone with the $300 price tag. At very least for the larger banks. The 128 kB chip could be PSRAM I suppose, same for the 64 kB block, the 512 kB of VRAM should be dual ported DRAM. (assuming the VRAM label is accurate) I also assumed that all (except Z80 bank, and backup SRAM) used 16-bit data paths. This is all pure conjecture on my part though, you'd need to open up a console and look at tech doccuments to know. (plus there's probably some revisions)

Beyond the superior system RAM of the Neo Geo CD, I don't see any other advantage the hardware had over the Saturn. The Saturn had more processing power, a better video processor, better hardware sound and a faster CD drive. The Saturn also had just as impressive explosions onscreen as any game on the Neo Geo.

I don't dissagree, the Saturn would be the better hardware, Neo's ROM carts and CD's RAM were the biggest advantages. Not sure about some things like comparing background layers or sheer number of sprites moving around -Saturn would have a verry indefinite limit, using textured tiles as its "sprites" for background generation, I'm not sure though, and the Saturn has some bugs, like with transparency. (not to get into a separate discussion, but the Atari Jaguar, for all its problems, seems to have some awsome 2D capabilities)

That hypothetical Neo Geo home console using simple carts with highly compressed data is still stuck in my head too.

[jesus.arnold]

It's defineatly not a fair comparison. The Saturn port of In the Hunt was inferior to that of the Playstation version, and there's no reason, beyond poor programming, that it should be the lesser version. Pulstar also used rendered graphics for the enemy models.

We're talking about relevance to the times, if Pulstar looks better than many Saturn games of the same era (which I've just shown) then obviously its games were not "looking dated by 1995" as you asserted.

In fact Pulstar's graphics kinda' remind me of Thunder Force V which was released in 1997 on Saturn, so by those standards Pulstar was still easily impressive looking by 1995 standards.

You brought up the question of why the Saturn would be a better choice for 2D gaming than the Neo Geo in 1995. Does the added bonus of Sega's 3D arcade games not come into play, in addition to a system that was more than capable of running solid 2D software?

Are you asking the question as someone just looking at the 2 systems running 2D software side-by-side, or as a better purchase choice?

If anything, those 3D games that you brought up would've mislead people into thinking that the Saturn would concentrate on 3D in the future, and would therefore make them think the Saturn was not the right choice to buy for 2D games.

Unfortunatly, the Neo Geo CD was tied to the arcade hardware. Neo Geo was a direct competitor with Capcom's 2D arcade hardware, so the decision to create games for a direct competitor wasn't in Capcom's best interest.

Capcom didn't have to make AES versions that could be used in the arcade, just specific CD releases, by the same logic they wouldn't have made Saturn games either as they were also on a system made by one of their arcade competitors.

Sega paid Capcom for the rights to a Resident Evil game, but Code Veronica was created in-house by Sega. Capcom's support of the Dreamcast had a lot to do with the success they had with games (2D) on the Saturn, but unlike the Saturn, the PS2 and the other consoles were very capable of running those 2D games created for the Dreamcast.

How does this help your argument? you're basically saying here that Capcom had to release games on Saturn because it was the only popular home system that could handle their games, whilst they chose to release games on Dreamcast when there were hardware equivilants on the horizon that could handle the games at least as well.

Capcom could've easily spent 1999-2000 releasing for the still popular PS1 and gearing up for the "sure bet" PS2 release.

Why do you think Capcom had a hatred towards Sony? The Playstation brought in a ton of cash for Capcom, with titles like Resident Evil being the most successful franchises in Capcom's history. The one company Capcom should have had a hatred towards would have been Nintendo, since they limited 3rd party publishers during the NES era. Yet, Capcom held no loyalties to anyone, even releasing Resident Evil titles on the N64 and later providing short time exclusives to the GC.

I don't "think" anything, I know Capcom hated Sony during that era as its pretty much common knowledge, the head of Capcom was very vocal of his dislike of Sony.

I'm not entirely sure what caused it, but it may have something to do with Sony snubbing Capcom during the PS1 debut, apparently Sony refused Capcom permission to release their 2D games on PS1 in the early days.

And yes Capcom also had a problem with Nintendo (seems that the head of the company was easily annoyed) this was probably, like you said, over the licensing issues with the NES, however I remember there being a whole "Nintendo wants to rebuild bridges" thing going on during the Gamecube's era, and this was when Capcom and Nintendo started to put loads of lucrative sounding deals together (which all ended up pretty much falling apart, but oh well)

As soon as Capcom realised that Sega could be a realistic 3rd option, they tried to throw support behind them, even at a time when very few companies could be bothered.

[jerry coeurl]

What is it about Astal's game play that you like? is it the long flat stages interspersed with enemies? the bits where you, shock horror have to jump from one platform from another (never seen that before in a platform game ), the time consuming and basic 3 step boss fights? The fact that its so short and easy that I could complete it a few hours after i'd bought it?

Or is it....the beautiful graphics and music perhaps

The gameplay is simple but fun, the level design is excellent (with lots of variation), the boss battles are fun, it's challenging (I don't know that anyone could really beat the game that quickly without cheating) and of course the graphics and music are beautiful. Really, I think you're making things up to justify disliking a game just because it's on a platform that (for whatever reason) you have a vendetta against. Did the Sega Saturn kick your dog or something?

[jesus.arnold]

I'm not entirely sure what caused it, but it may have something to do with Sony snubbing Capcom during the PS1 debut, apparently Sony refused Capcom permission to release their 2D games on PS1 in the early days.

Scratch the "early days" seems as though Sony were causing Capcom problems throughout the PS1 era

http://uk.psx.ign.com/articles/062/062624p1.html

The gameplay is simple but fun, the level design is excellent (with lots of variation), the boss battles are fun, it's challenging (I don't know that anyone could really beat the game that quickly without cheating) and of course the graphics and music are beautiful. Really, I think you're making things up to justify disliking a game just because it's on a platform that (for whatever reason) you have a vendetta against. Did the Sega Saturn kick your dog or something?

Lots of variation there's only 9 stages (note stages not levels) in the entire game anyway and with the 1st stage being nothing more than an introductory thats not much room for change, virtually every level in the game is either a walk across flat ground or a simple jump across moving platforms/icicles design, the only level with much originality at all is the one on the monster that throws you up and down and even that, for the most part plays like a normal raft floating level design. The final stage is nothing but a crude lowering-spikes-which-follow-a-pattern design, but like every level in the game it has been tarted up and glossed to the max with the usual platformer spikes being replaced by the very impressive looking legs of a giant bug walking across the screen.

I really couldn't see this game taking anyone longer than a day or two to complete at the very worst, in fact the only level in the entire game which gave me any trouble at all was the one with the moving platforms over the chasm with the purple vortex in the background, even the final boss was ludicrously easy, following such a basic pattern that it could be worked out in the space of one life.

All in all when I first put it on I was pretty stunned to see a platformer released in 1995 that didn't have a save or password feature, but when I completed it finding it had half as many stages as older games like the original Sonic the Hedgehog (and like 1/10th of Kid Chameleon ) it was pretty easy to see why the developers decided not to include them.

[Da_Shocker]

Ok I need to intervene in here. If Capcom hated Sony so much then why on earth did they bring out Strider 2 to the PSX rather than the DC? There was alot of talk about that back in the day.

[Aarzak]

Because the coin-op version of "Strider 2" was developed on Capcom's ZN-2 hardware, which was based on the PS1's architecture. So it was easier to just downport it to the PS1 rather than enhance it and port it over to DC.

[jesus.arnold]

Also, apart from technical reasons, yes Capcom disliked Sony, but I doubt they were prepared to send their company into bankruptcy over it, the harsh reality for Capcom and all the 3rd parties during that time, was that Sony controlled by far the largest share of the videogame market, and releasing games for non Sony consoles meant that they were limiting the number of potential buyers for their product and taking a chance.

Looking at that old article I found though, I'd imagine that Capcom would not only feel angry but would also feel pushed into supporting other consoles from a financial standpoint. If I'd been them, and I'd spent tons of money developing games only to have them finished, and have Sony refusing the rights to publish them, I'd be worried about a future market of which Sony are in control of (due to them being unreliable when it came to 2D games, which Capcom still made a lot of) This anti 2D standpoint itself could've feasibly become a serious problem for Capcom as a company if it had gotten worse (it did actually in reality get better with time, but Capcom wouldn't have known that back then). So maybe they felt it was in the companies best interests in the long run to back Sega too.

[Da_Shocker]

Because the coin-op version of "Strider 2" was developed on Capcom's ZN-2 hardware, which was based on the PS1's architecture. So it was easier to just downport it to the PS1 rather than enhance it and port it over to DC.

No I mean why wasn't the game originally designed for the Naomi hardware which was available when this game was developed.

[jesus.arnold]

No I mean why wasn't the game originally designed for the Naomi hardware which was available when this game was developed.

Are you sure Naomi was easily available at the time? the Strider 2 arcade game arrived in 1999, surely games from that era took over a year to develop?

Apart from that, who knows? price could've factored into it for one as either way Naomi would've been state of the art for the time, or maybe Capcom just decided not to take any chances and thought a big name like Strider would be easy to get through Sony's people, so designed it with a PS1 port in mind from the beginning.

Also I'm not sure why you're specifically centering on Strider 2, the game had no real ties with Sega, Capcom didn't make the Mega Drive port of the original, it was handled by Sega themselves, and the 1st game was available on hoards of different formats Mega Drive, TG-16, Master System, Spectrum, Amstrad, C64, as well as the separate Strider game made exclusively for the NES.

[Da_Shocker]

I was reading an issue of Gamefan and they wondered why the game was on the aging PSX board rather than the new Naomi.