Why did Japan never really support Sega?

[jesus.arnold]

Hmm, here's one thought though: how satisfied would games have been with more limited 3D games like the 32x sported had that (hypothetically) been Sega's mainstay console to go with (as the Neptune etc). The 32x was pretty limited (the RAM limitation being a big factor), and there were certainly better hypothetical propositions in the recent Genesis+CD+32 thread, but even the 32x would have solved one major problem with the Saturn, cost. (the Neptune would have undercut the PSX by a ton)

And it seems UK/EU gamers were more budget minded in particular, so even with the tech limitations, the lower cost and compatibility (plus Sega brand) might have helped a lot.

The 32X was too weak, it needed to be able to throw around a good amount of textured polygons to have a chance, and the UK wasn't as budget minded during that era anymore, and anyway the money issue always seemed more focussed around hatred for the "razor and blades"? (I think you call it) method, we wasn't so bothered about shelling out for consoles or computers as much as paying more for the software than what it was actually worth. Wouldn't have 32X games been more expensive due to being on cartridge format?

Also this may be my bias speaking but in my opinion if the UK had still been very budget conscious during that mid 90s period, then the far more logical choice for people to buy would've been the 3DO anyway as around the release of the PS1 the 3DO price had dropped to £199 with a game whilst the PS1 was £299 without a game and the Saturn was £399 without a game.

The 3DO had a small but solid back catalogue of games by then, its hardware could handle a very respectable amount of textured polygons and it was £100 cheaper than its nearest competitor

Or scrap any of that entirely: how do you think consumers would have responded to more SVP/Virtua Racing quality games on the Genesis (particularly with a lock-on cart for a one time buy)? Or some similar add-on, much simpler and cheaper than 32x, but more limited.

Or was it really just the PSX quality 3D that wowed people, with low color shaded polygons still falling behind regardless of game quality?

Lets be honest here, the PS1 was like the deal of the century and most people could see this

Sony had obviously tirelessly prepared for their entrance into the console market with masses of research, they created a console that could do everything needed of it for the time whilst being as cheap as possible to manufacture and easy for 3rd parties to develop games for, not only this but they sold the console at a loss to themselves that only they were big enough as a company to afford and paid out for a huge advertising campaign.

But saying that, over here if Sega had actually managed to do just one thing right their well loved name brand alone could've still kept them competing with Sony.

but they didn't, they made a console which was expensive to manufacture so they couldn't compete with Sony on price, a console that was difficult to make games for so they couldn't compete with 3rd party support/numbers of games, and a console which they themselves didn't support properly with their own well known licenses.

Sony had done masses of market research and Sega had been caught with their pants down, from what I've read in my magazines from the time Sega put very little effort into designing the Saturn at all, they had built it with the understanding that they would have the 5th generation video game market to themselves for a few years before Nintendo came out with their machine, only to panic when Sony announced they were entering the competition and were forced to improve the Saturn design at a late stage in development.

But that's europe, we were discussing Japan, and on that note... Hmm the same kind of thing. Virtua Fighter was the Saturn's initial killer app, but would Japanese consumers have responded similarly to the game on the 32x/Neptune (hypothetically) -which is even considered superior to the Saturn port in some ways, or even a low-color version of VF using SVP or something similar. (like an SH2 or maybe SH1 on-cart rather than the SVP)

I think the Saturn was perfect for Japan just the way it was, they seemed much more interested in 2D then the rest of the world at that time and its 3D capabilities were good enough.

From what I understand the Saturn competed toe to toe with the PS1 in Japan until Final Fantasy 7 was released.

Securing one of the major RPGs was probably all Sega really needed to do to push them ahead of PS1 in Japan, a Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest was all they really needed for that territory.

[Silanda]

Also this may be my bias speaking but in my opinion if the UK had still been very budget conscious during that mid 90s period, then the far more logical choice for people to buy would've been the 3DO anyway as around the release of the PS1 the 3DO price had dropped to £199 with a game whilst the PS1 was £299 without a game and the Saturn was £399 without a game.

The 3DO had a small but solid back catalogue of games by then, its hardware could handle a very respectable amount of textured polygons and it was £100 cheaper than its nearest competitor.

That's what this little part of the UK did as a stopgap measure. Shame the 3do was pretty much dead by mid '96. As an aside with regards to the Saturn's success, there's a system that nobody mentions that was also competition: the PC. I ditched my plans to buy a Playstation in favour of the PC, and '94-'99 was probably the height of the PC's popularity. Everyone I knew played on them instead of, or as well as, the consoles.

[Da_Shocker]

It's interesting to note that Square didn't even bother to look at the Saturn when they left Nintedo's camp. I do wonder did $ony sweeten the pot with Square and Enix did the same thing. SoJ didn't even seem to give a damn about them for what I can see. And let's be real Square and Enix alliance with Nintendo is one reason the MD bombed in Japan.

[kool kitty89]

The 32X was too weak, it needed to be able to throw around a good amount of textured polygons to have a chance, and the UK wasn't as budget minded during that era anymore, and anyway the money issue always seemed more focussed around hatred for the "razor and blades"? (I think you call it) method, we wasn't so bothered about shelling out for consoles or computers as much as paying more for the software than what it was actually worth. Wouldn't have 32X games been more expensive due to being on cartridge format?

As to being weak, yeah it was kind of limited, but the biggest issue was probably the RAM, otherwise it would be roughly comperable in some ways to a contemporary mid-range 486 VGA PC, but th elack of RAM really hurts it. Using carts means you can suplement ROM for some things, but that gets tricky along with on the fly data decompression. But like a VGA PC pretty much all rendering is done in software (not sure if VGA cards had 2D acceleration), and of corse there are difference in color modes and resolution as well as the Genesis hardware.
This is even worse for CD based games though as you don't have ROM to fall back on. (just the Sega CD RAM)

And carts are more expensive, true, though it also depends on the ROM sizes. (N64 sized stuff would definitely be pricy) CDs were the way to go really, and even with those "razor and blade" policies they'd be much more reasonably priced.

The completely hypothetical systems mentioned in post #30 are much more like it though, and both should be cheaper and available sooner (without being rushed) than the Saturn, and CD was definitely a must. (even if 1x speed)

but they didn't, they made a console which was expensive to manufacture so they couldn't compete with Sony on price, a console that was difficult to make games for so they couldn't compete with 3rd party support/numbers of games, and a console which they themselves didn't support properly with their own well known licenses.

Hmm, well technically speaking the PSX should have been almost as expensive, Sony just really took to that "Razor+blade" strategy hard and took a big hit on th ehardware, absorbed the cost and planned to make that back many times on game sales. (which could still be relatively cheap due to the CD medium)

Sony had done masses of market research and Sega had been caught with their pants down, from what I've read in my magazines from the time Sega put very little effort into designing the Saturn at all, they had built it with the understanding that they would have the 5th generation video game market to themselves for a few years before Nintendo came out with their machine, only to panic when Sony announced they were entering the competition and were forced to improve the Saturn design at a late stage in development.

I've heard mixed info on this, but it seems they had some hardware a fair way along by 1993 ("GigaDrive"), kind of middle ground between the capabilities of the System 32 and Model 1, with modest 3D and strong 2D, but then caught wind of th ePlayStation and scrapped it, scrambling to get a more competitive peice of hardware together.
And in between there were propositions made by Kalinske to use the SGI chipset being developed (later taked up by Nintendo) or partner with Sony. (though Sega could have gotten a raw deal)

From what I understand the Saturn competed toe to toe with the PS1 in Japan until Final Fantasy 7 was released.

I though that Sega had gone by innacurate figures, only going from sales to retailers, but when comparing actual consumer purchaces, th ePlayStation had been ahead (if slightly) from launch, and by a considerable margin by 1996.

It's interesting to note that Square didn't even bother to look at the Saturn when they left Nintedo's camp. I do wonder did $ony sweeten the pot with Square and Enix did the same thing. SoJ didn't even seem to give a damn about them for what I can see. And let's be real Square and Enix alliance with Nintendo is one reason the MD bombed in Japan.

The PSX was extremely attractive to 3rd parties, powerful, well organized hardware with excellent developer's tools. Plus there was the M-JPG decoder for streaming video, a big part of why Square ditched the N64. (and all the Saturn had early on was Cinepak, I've read there was a software MPEG decoder developed later, and of course the VCD MPEG module)

That's what this little part of the UK did as a stopgap measure. Shame the 3do was pretty much dead by mid '96. As an aside with regards to the Saturn's success, there's a system that nobody mentions that was also competition: the PC. I ditched my plans to buy a Playstation in favour of the PC, and '94-'99 was probably the height of the PC's popularity. Everyone I knew played on them instead of, or as well as, the consoles.

Yeah that's for my family too, I was playing games on a PC well before we got an SNES, but the case is a bit different as my dad works with them (software engineer) and built most of our PCs as well. (except laptops) But by 1994 I was playing a variety of edutainment plus X-Wing CD.

[Chris]

Actually the SMS sold pretty good in Brazil too.

This is very true, the Master System was huge in Brazil, and was supported long after the debut of the Mega Drive.

[kool kitty89]

Isn't TECTOY still selling Master Systems/clones/plug and play in some form? (or did they completely drop those finally in favor of MegaDrives) Didn't they even have a wireless one with an antena that had a strong enough RF signal to actually output to a TV at a bit of a distance too?

[Chris]

Isn't TECTOY still selling Master Systems/clones/plug and play in some form? (or did they completely drop those finally in favor of MegaDrives) Didn't they even have a wireless one with an antena that had a strong enough RF signal to actually output to a TV at a bit of a distance too?

I think I read somewhere a while ago that they still are, and there are quite a few different variations of preloaded [plug&PLAY] consoles out there.
Not sure about a wireless one though, but it would'nt suprise me.

As for the original Master System, I beleive it was actually supported and sold in stores into the 21st century there and I kind of got the impression that it was even more popular than the Mega Drive long after that came out.
Not sure about that though.

I also had a friend from South America back when the Genesis came out and he said Sega was huge over there, though I can't remember exactly where he was from.

[jesus.arnold]

I though that Sega had gone by innacurate figures, only going from sales to retailers, but when comparing actual consumer purchaces, th ePlayStation had been ahead (if slightly) from launch, and by a considerable margin by 1996.

To be fair, if it comes down to Sega's word versus Sony you'd have to be totally insane to take Sony's side, Sony has been caught lying and inflating their sales figures many, many times in the past, you talk about Sega only going from sales to retailers? this is what Sony have always done themselves anyway, heck they were even caught doing this within the last year with European PS3 sales.

Tom Kalinske is probably not the most honest guy around, but personally I'd still take his word over any figures released by Sony, apart from stating in 1996 that the Saturn is ahead in Japan, he says that they have sold nearly 3 million Saturns "through to the consumers" in Japan, whilst Sony are a little over 2 million

Knowing Tom Kalinske's used car salesman demeanor "a little" could be anything from 100,000 to 500,000, and they themselves could've still be 200,000 away from the 3 million mark though

[ooXxXoo]

Isn't TECTOY still selling Master Systems/clones/plug and play in some form? (or did they completely drop those finally in favor of MegaDrives) Didn't they even have a wireless one with an antena that had a strong enough RF signal to actually output to a TV at a bit of a distance too?

Well, tectoy does have the Master System Super Compact line, but they aren't clones at all...Their hardware is very similar to an American SMS 2 but with the relocated components for the portability design.....And yes they have the wireless RF feature....Although they wouldn't have never passed the strictly FCC regulations in the US due to this...

[kool kitty89]

Well, tectoy does have the Master System Super Compact line, but they aren't clones at all...Their hardware is very similar to an American SMS 2 but with the relocated components for the portability design.....And yes they have the wireless RF feature....Although they wouldn't have never passed the strictly FCC regulations in the US due to this...

OK I wasn't sure if they'd switched to a clone ASIC
type configuration like with the MegaDrive. (technically I think that's licensed as well, and similar to the ASIC in the Genesis 3 and VA-4 Genesis 2, with differences elsewhere on the board though)

And yeah, that setup would never pass FCC regs.

To be fair, if it comes down to Sega's word versus Sony you'd have to be totally insane to take Sony's side, Sony has been caught lying and inflating their sales figures many, many times in the past, you talk about Sega only going from sales to retailers? this is what Sony have always done themselves anyway, heck they were even caught doing this within the last year with European PS3 sales.

Tom Kalinske is probably not the most honest guy around, but personally I'd still take his word over any figures released by Sony, apart from stating in 1996 that the Saturn is ahead in Japan, he says that they have sold nearly 3 million Saturns "through to the consumers" in Japan, whilst Sony are a little over 2 million

Knowing Tom Kalinske's used car salesman demeanor "a little" could be anything from 100,000 to 500,000, and they themselves could've still be 200,000 away from the 3 million mark though

Fair enough, not really sure what figures the author was using for that either.

I seem to remember a comparison with a substantial lead for Sony in Japan by late 1996 at least, and that would be before FFVII, although those could be skewed figures. In any case, a new Phantacy Star game could certainly have helped there.

[kool kitty89]

Ah, found that comparison:


Hmm not much of a lead for Sony though, and a real 3-way split with Sega and Nintendo. (with a lead for nintendo if you add the GB and N64 to the still strong SFC) So maybe FFVII really was the deal breaker over there.

[jesus.arnold]

Ah, found that comparison:

Hmm not much of a lead for Sony though, and a real 3-way split with Sega and Nintendo. (with a lead for nintendo if you add the GB and N64 to the still strong SFC) So maybe FFVII really was the deal breaker over there.

The graphs don't seem too unreasonable to me, although they do show Sony ahead in 96' the people who made the graph were possibly using Sony inflated sales figures?

A few more bits and pieces of info I dug up outta' magazines yesterday (all pertaining to Japan).

Saturn obliterated the Playstation at launch in Japan - EDGE Magzine special, EDGE travel to Japan to experience the launches of both the Saturn and the PS1, they are amazed at how huge the Saturn hype is with massive cues and tons of fanfare, under two weeks later they report how surprised they are at how small the PS1's launch is (they're surprised because they report that in their opinion the PS1 is the better machine as its graphics look better and there are more quality launch titles available, as well as being cheaper) they report that the Japanese are going crazy over Virtua Fighter, and that virtually everyone buys it with their Saturn (reportedly 98%).

Nov 22nd 1994 Sega supply 200,000 consoles to retailers on the Saturn launch and are sold out on the first day, they hold back 300,000 consoles ready for the PS1 launch

Dec 3rd 1994 - Sony supply 100,000 consoles to retailers on the PS1 launch and "there were few sell-outs for shops to brag about"

April 1995 - In another interview with Tom Kalinske he states that during the PS1's launch week Saturn was still outselling it 5:3 even though it was the 1st week PS1 was available.

1995 - Sega claims to have sold over 1 million Saturns through Japanese stores

January 1996 - Apparently there are 1.5 million advance orders for Virtua Fighter 2 in Japan alone.

What the heck the Japanese were playing on their Saturns for the 1st few months I don't know (apart from Virtua Fighter of course ), it'd be interesting to see Clockwork Knights sales figures there

[ooXxXoo]

OK I wasn't sure if they'd switched to a clone ASIC
type configuration like with the MegaDrive. (technically I think that's licensed as well, and similar to the ASIC in the Genesis 3 and VA-4 Genesis 2, with differences elsewhere on the board though)

Well, you aren't wrong at all....For the later SMS home consoles (the Master System 3 Collections w/ built-in games) tectoy did used clone technology...
...

[cj iwakura]

I think a lot of the Saturn's success in Japan can be attributed to the types of games it had.

Stuff like Tokimeki Memorial and Sakura Taisen was huge, and had around 0% chance of coming out here. (Even if it had, it probably would have sold like crap.)


Saturn had some amazing RPGs in the states(Albert Odyssey, Dragon Force), but it just wasn't popular enough to sell most gamers on the system.

It worked for me, at least.

[kool kitty89]

Yeah, maybe FFVII really was the main turning point. I already mentioned it, but I wonder how a "Phantasy Star V" would have affected things.

Interesting to note that before FFVII there had been more PS titles released in the West (I-IV), and that the PS games were actually released in the RPG unfriendly Europe, while I think FF I, "II," and "III" didn't make it past North America.