NES graphic glitches on an HDTV...

[17daysolderthannes]

Didn't we already have this discussion a few weeks ago ? (retro games looking like crap on HDTVs) - with exactly the same "I won't do this, I can't do that" kind of stuff whenever someone came up with a solution ?

for real



"YOU NEED TO BUY A SMALL CRT TV, EVEN A 13" WILL BE FINE, THEY ARE SUPER CHEAP AND ARE PRACTICALLY FREE IF THEY ARE USED! HD TVS ALWAYS MAKE RETRO GAMES LOOK LIKE SHIT BECAUSE THEY WEREN'T DESIGNED WITH HD TVS IN MIND! IF YOU DON'T WANT TO DO THAT, JUST EMULATE IT AND RUN A CABLE TO YOUR TV AND USE GRAPHICS FILTERS!

GOOD NIGHT, AND HAVE A PLEASANT TOMORROW!"

[mick_aka]

My NES looks pretty damn nice through the composite on my Panasonic Viera plasma with all the filters turned off...



However the series 4 Samsung LCD in the bedroom has all sorts of issues with the NES and in fact anything you run through the composite video input, I tried running the NES through the RF and using the analogue tuner which surprisingly seemed to give a much more acceptable image...

[the.importer]

Didn't we already have this discussion a few weeks ago ? (retro games looking like crap on HDTVs) - with exactly the same "I won't do this, I can't do that" kind of stuff whenever someone came up with a solution ?

Seriously,

• either use a Wii [via VGA] and download the game for like a few bucks or mod it for the Homebrew Channel to play it for free.
  
  
• or download this:
  http://www.zshare.net/download/66793697a53ceb46/ and use your Dreamcast via VGA.
  
  In both cases it will literally look like this via VGA:
  
  (of course you can stretch it to fit your wide screen like in the Wii photo but it's not what I would recommend)

The simple for all of this would be: Retro feeling

If I wanted digital games, I would have kept on playing the emulators and ROMs on my Media PC.

[kool kitty89]

If you're that into the "retro feel" you shouldn't play them on anything but a CRT SDTV.

[17daysolderthannes]

well, here's a last ditch effort: how about a moderately sized portable DVD player with composite inputs? I have a ?7"? Circuit City black friday special DVD player that I use from time to time. I actually prefer it for N64 since N64 was always so blurry and stretched out looking. So, maybe see if you can find a 9 or 10 inch portable DVD player with composite input and stash it anywhere that there's a spot. You would think a 10 inch screen would be too small, but if you're right in front of it, it's actually just about right.

[retrospiel]

HD TVS ALWAYS MAKE RETRO GAMES LOOK LIKE SHIT BECAUSE THEY WEREN'T DESIGNED WITH HD TVS IN MIND!

It's even worse: They are using an exploit of a feature of SD CRTs that can't be reproduced on HDTVs.
The resulting problem probably could be avoided if the HDTV's deinterlacer would properly identify the incoming signal as 240p instead of 480i, and/or if you could manually set the resolution and deactivate the filters (the less filters the better).

[the.importer]

If you're that into the "retro feel" you shouldn't play them on anything but a CRT SDTV.

Oh please, besides these glitches, they looks the same as they would on a CRT.

[kool kitty89]

No, actually they look quite a bit different, the entire display mechanism is different and they display in true 480i and 240p (the latter for almost all retro games, N64 has a fair number of 480i games at least though), plus CRTs (including HD) are analog dsplays, which mean that can truely display varying resolutions (vertical res tends to be fixed or rather limited, but horizontal can be pretty much anything, granted after a certain point the dot pitch is too coarse for it to make any difference -which practically limits to ~720 pixels wide on SDTVs, and I don't know a whole lot about HD CRTs outside of them supporting true 1080i, don't know about 720p or 1080p -I know they at least do 480p natviely, as a single feild display of 1080i=>540p, and I think 240p/480i stuff is still scan doubled/deinterlaced)

LCD/Plasma displays have just one native resolution, period, everything else is scaled to fit into that. (and tends to look blurry, my laptop's monitor happenes to be 1440x900, going lower results in noticable blurring, especially for text, the lower you go, the more noticable it tends to be)

[retrospiel]

Oh please, besides these glitches, they looks the same as they would on a CRT.

That depends on the TVs involved. -You don't even have a CRT to compare, how can you tell ?
This certainly is not how NES looks on my CRT - even if not taking the widescreen stretch into account:

Click for full size

I'd imagine that it's a blurry mess when in motion.




Anyway, let's assume your TV manages to accurately reproduce the NES as if it would be displayed on a CRT, I would still prefer something like this:





( via http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2007/02/7044.ars )

[the.importer]

No, actually they look quite a bit different, the entire display mechanism is different and they display in true 480i and 240p (the latter for almost all retro games, N64 has a fair number of 480i games at least though), plus CRTs (including HD) are analog dsplays, which mean that can truely display varying resolutions (vertical res tends to be fixed or rather limited, but horizontal can be pretty much anything, granted after a certain point the dot pitch is too coarse for it to make any difference -which practically limits to ~720 pixels wide on SDTVs, and I don't know a whole lot about HD CRTs outside of them supporting true 1080i, don't know about 720p or 1080p -I know they at least do 480p natviely, as a single feild display of 1080i=>540p, and I think 240p/480i stuff is still scan doubled/deinterlaced)

LCD/Plasma displays have just one native resolution, period, everything else is scaled to fit into that. (and tends to look blurry, my laptop's monitor happenes to be 1440x900, going lower results in noticable blurring, especially for text, the lower you go, the more noticable it tends to be)

My friend still has a CRT in his house, I don't see any differences besides the fact that the CRT has millions of large pixels.

That depends on the TVs involved. -You don't even have a CRT to compare, how can you tell ?
This certainly is not how NES looks on my CRT - even if not taking the widescreen stretch into account:



I'd imagine that it's a blurry mess when in motion.

Nope, keeps running well. Telling you, minus these glitches, everything's OK

[kool kitty89]

My friend still has a CRT in his house, I don't see any differences besides the fact that the CRT has millions of large pixels.

Tose aren't pixels you're probably seeing, but rather the phosphor dots, as I mentioned, coarse phosphor dots are the limiting factor for horizotal resolution. (and dot pitch can vary widely, but will tend be a good deal coarser on an SDTV than that on newer CRT VGA monitors at least, not sure about HD CRTs though)
That said, our 27" Sanyo CRT SDTV still has significantly finer dots than the pixels of Plasma TVs I've seen (that's one major limiter on plasmas, pixel size).

As for physical display differences, oh there there alright, 2 things to look for, small blank gaps between scanlines when displaying 240p (ie most old consoles and a lot of PSX/N64/Saturn stuff), but at the same time the lins are steady, static. When displaying interlaced content (split screen sonic 2, some N64/Saturn games, and all newer consoles -except PS2 which is sometimes 240p I think, plus any TV/DVD/VHS etc) there's a clear difference: the lines will be flickering intermitently, with no gaps between, apearing to have kind of a rolling effect. Start Sonic 2 and watch closely when it goes to the split screen mode, the same thing happens with Episode 1 racer on N64, th etitle screen and intro video are 240p, but menues and in-game are 480i. (also I beleive 3DO renders in 320x240 but upscans it to 320x480)

Christuserloeser, I was thinking about VC games, do they automatically get upscaled when Wii is set to output 480p?
Otherwise there should still be the deinterlacing problems associated with 240p as VC displays in the native resolution -genuine 240p- on an SDTV) Some people have reported TVs not being able to display VC games at all (like with some other 240p devices), but maybe they ignorantly have it set to 480i.

[17daysolderthannes]

yeah...I'm starting to get a little tired of "the.importer." First he won't listen when I explain to him why his happy Nintendo letter on game in or out of the system is BS (and was probably referring to the Wii anyway, it's not like they have NES manuals hanging around anymore), now he won't listen when we tell him his TV just isn't going to do what he wants it to do. We gave a long list of alternatives, and he doesn't want to hear it. If you're going to ask, don't cross your arms when the answer isn't what you wanted to hear.

Emulation via some console or PC is the only way to get these games to display somewhat properly on that particular HD TV. Older composite-based systems apparently use too many display exploits to function on the TV, period.

Why someone would be willing to spend a fortune on all kinds of expensive import games (that was you right, with the Famicom games?) and not buy a small CRT TV to enjoy them properly is just plain crazy to me. They aren't expensive, they don't take up alot of space, where's the issue?

[the.importer]

yeah...I'm starting to get a little tired of "the.importer." First he won't listen when I explain to him why his happy Nintendo letter on game in or out of the system is BS (and was probably referring to the Wii anyway, it's not like they have NES manuals hanging around anymore), now he won't listen when we tell him his TV just isn't going to do what he wants it to do. We gave a long list of alternatives, and he doesn't want to hear it. If you're going to ask, don't cross your arms when the answer isn't what you wanted to hear.

Emulation via some console or PC is the only way to get these games to display somewhat properly on that particular HD TV. Older composite-based systems apparently use too many display exploits to function on the TV, period.

Why someone would be willing to spend a fortune on all kinds of expensive import games (that was you right, with the Famicom games?) and not buy a small CRT TV to enjoy them properly is just plain crazy to me. They aren't expensive, they don't take up alot of space, where's the issue?

Tired of seeing me, well there's an idea, go to another forum >_>

[17daysolderthannes]

Tired of seeing me, well there's an idea, go to another forum >_>

3333>133 posts

if one of us is leaving, it's not me.

[kool kitty89]

Importer, didn't you mention a while back that you got your NES to look nicer after running it through an old PC video card with some filtering? (are you still doing that or are these artifacts visible directly from AV input from your NES?)

I honestly like the look of retro games on larger screens as well, we've played the majority of games on 27" CRTs (previously a ~1992 trinitron, and for the last ~5 years a flat screen Sanyo CRT), and that includes Atari VCS games. (though it was cool to play that on my 10" PortaColor -needs repair ATM, that' sjust dual retro with 2 of the longest lived electroncs products in the US, both ~14 years, and both way past their prime when discontinued )

Now, if you don't yet have an RGC SCART => component adaptor, may I suggest something else: hunt down an old Amiga or Atari ST monitor, outside of importing a PAL SCART capable TV, that's a nice option, both accepting NTSC RGB signals plus composite, and pretty small too. (~12" screen I think) With built-in stereo if memory serves. So great for retro gaming, the only thing is you'll still need to make/get a cable that adapts these consoles to the monitor jacks. (but rather cheap and passive wiring only, unlike an SCART adaptor) Might just want to make an SCART to Amiga/Atari monitor adaptor and just get SCART cables for the respective consoles. At least that's one hard-core rout to take. (might just be easier for most to get an SCART to component adaptor and a cheap CRT TV with component inputs, only problem is you still need to mod that adaptor for audio output)